not sure if this is correct or not, but i've read from rotrex site before saying their sc have above 95% effeciency, so i'm guessing other centrifugal blower won't be far off?
4agze Replacement s/c complete
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Yes! Rotrex are very a very good S/C manufacturer! unfortunately they wont sell to anyone is Asia other than HKS!
So have to get from USA dealers but they are damm expensive, by the time they are bought back to Malaysia, i think you can buy 2 Raptor S/C.
So have to get from USA dealers but they are damm expensive, by the time they are bought back to Malaysia, i think you can buy 2 Raptor S/C.
i recond we'll get faster with a twin raptor blower setup XD.. koeniggsegg ccx.. :_: damn syok square muffler tip..
synchron,
my concern is the boost result.
0.8bar is defenately punch out more power than 0.7bar, right?
Moreover, your are at stock ECU.
I am sorry, but i am doubt you can get your claimed result at only 0.6~0.7bar.
Stock GZE's boost is 0.6bar, BHP produces is 170.
Your boost is 0.6~0.7, but you claimed to get 210 BHP!
Just because of you are running Raptor S/C?
Does it mean that stock GZE's S/C efficiency is so poor that it has 40 BHP loss?
Don't you see the gap is too far?
I have limited knowledge in S/C. If there is anything that i have missed out, please kindly advice.
my concern is the boost result.
0.8bar is defenately punch out more power than 0.7bar, right?
Moreover, your are at stock ECU.
I am sorry, but i am doubt you can get your claimed result at only 0.6~0.7bar.
Stock GZE's boost is 0.6bar, BHP produces is 170.
Your boost is 0.6~0.7, but you claimed to get 210 BHP!
Just because of you are running Raptor S/C?
Does it mean that stock GZE's S/C efficiency is so poor that it has 40 BHP loss?
Don't you see the gap is too far?
I have limited knowledge in S/C. If there is anything that i have missed out, please kindly advice.
:shocked: just notice it.. but.. raptorsc in this tread is really from raptorsc.com.au??
then the sc used will be the raptor V model? or the R model? (mentioned to start manufacuture after may 2006.. so just guessing.. :mouth_closed: )
then the sc used will be the raptor V model? or the R model? (mentioned to start manufacuture after may 2006.. so just guessing.. :mouth_closed: )
levin818,
Root type SC, the one in 4AGZE and 1GGZE, very old technology. It pulls air instead of compress it. Not very efficient.
Centrifugal SC, new technology. Works like a turbo except it's belt driven. It compresses air.
That's the difference. :regular_smile:
Root type SC, the one in 4AGZE and 1GGZE, very old technology. It pulls air instead of compress it. Not very efficient.
Centrifugal SC, new technology. Works like a turbo except it's belt driven. It compresses air.
That's the difference. :regular_smile:
hmm.. let me get some facts together and see how they fit..
old turbocharger have bad effeciency, such as the toyota ct turbines, mostly from 60%-70% effeciency, turbo have bad effeciency cuz the heat from the exhaust gas will heat up the intake air.
root type charger also generate alot of heat itself because of all the friction it generates, some sc comparison tech article (from random memory of mine, can't really prove it right now) claim root type charger have only 50+% effeciency, although i do not know 4agze's sc12's, although i read in numbers of forum and people are complaining it is inefficient, and say it is prone to heatsoak.
4agze come with top mount i/c, which is less effecient than front mount anyway, and i don't really like toyota's oem i/c, people are complaining it isn't efficient as well.
so even if they can make the total efficiency of the sc12 to 70% with the i/c, you are still talking about a centrifugal sc here.. which so far i read from catalogs (yeah, marketing gimmicks are debatable.. but they are the only source what...) centrifugal have at least 85% efficiency (vortech brand.. dunno about raptor, rotrex claims to have 96-98%).
so.. 20-25% effeciency difference, i think the 40hp difference should still be in the "logical" range.
btw, all centrifugal sc feeds on engine oil right? that means if we add oil cooler to the engine then the effeciency of the supercharger will increase as well?
old turbocharger have bad effeciency, such as the toyota ct turbines, mostly from 60%-70% effeciency, turbo have bad effeciency cuz the heat from the exhaust gas will heat up the intake air.
root type charger also generate alot of heat itself because of all the friction it generates, some sc comparison tech article (from random memory of mine, can't really prove it right now) claim root type charger have only 50+% effeciency, although i do not know 4agze's sc12's, although i read in numbers of forum and people are complaining it is inefficient, and say it is prone to heatsoak.
4agze come with top mount i/c, which is less effecient than front mount anyway, and i don't really like toyota's oem i/c, people are complaining it isn't efficient as well.
so even if they can make the total efficiency of the sc12 to 70% with the i/c, you are still talking about a centrifugal sc here.. which so far i read from catalogs (yeah, marketing gimmicks are debatable.. but they are the only source what...) centrifugal have at least 85% efficiency (vortech brand.. dunno about raptor, rotrex claims to have 96-98%).
so.. 20-25% effeciency difference, i think the 40hp difference should still be in the "logical" range.
btw, all centrifugal sc feeds on engine oil right? that means if we add oil cooler to the engine then the effeciency of the supercharger will increase as well?
Centrifugal supercharger are not new technology! If i m not mistaken they are developed before the second world war!
Not all Centrifugal S/C are oil feed! Raptor S/C does not use oil to cool down it internals systems! The gear are driven by belts which looks like timming belts! The Raptor S/C will be much cooler than the others engine oil feed S/C.
I m not too sure about Rotrex efficiency! May be you can try asking those who BMW Kaki who use the AA supercharger kit! The supercharger is from Rotrex! I think the BMW kit cost around RM 30,000.
Raptorsc is the owner of the Raptor S/C Australia, his name is Tim Staier! We are currently using Raptor V model! Raptor R model might be too big for our applications!
Not all Centrifugal S/C are oil feed! Raptor S/C does not use oil to cool down it internals systems! The gear are driven by belts which looks like timming belts! The Raptor S/C will be much cooler than the others engine oil feed S/C.
I m not too sure about Rotrex efficiency! May be you can try asking those who BMW Kaki who use the AA supercharger kit! The supercharger is from Rotrex! I think the BMW kit cost around RM 30,000.
Raptorsc is the owner of the Raptor S/C Australia, his name is Tim Staier! We are currently using Raptor V model! Raptor R model might be too big for our applications!
OK
I will quickly put up some facts
Centrifugal compressor design started in 1800's, however Raptor is new techology in many respects, you could say it is refinement of design. The ceramic ball bearings, the high efficiency impeller, compact scroll housing and cooling cell technology are what make Raptor significantly different. NO hot engine oil or oil of any type goes to the supercharger, only cool air. Often the SC can be cooler than any other part in engine bay, buy some 20c degrees.
All manufacturers quote efficiency ranges, but depends on how SC match motor as to what part of efficiency band you end up using. An SC could be rated at 80% efficiency but due to misapplication (common) it could be running in 65% band. So don't get too hung up on percentages, look at results and if results are good then that product is what you want to use.
1298 and rollakid, you are right on with your understanding.
Synchron has taken notice of best practice SC system design from Raptor and followed as close as he could, the results say he is doing pretty ok :)
And yes it is Raptor V Synchron is using, Raptor R is only for 1000hp and more and not currently in production.
I will quickly put up some facts
Centrifugal compressor design started in 1800's, however Raptor is new techology in many respects, you could say it is refinement of design. The ceramic ball bearings, the high efficiency impeller, compact scroll housing and cooling cell technology are what make Raptor significantly different. NO hot engine oil or oil of any type goes to the supercharger, only cool air. Often the SC can be cooler than any other part in engine bay, buy some 20c degrees.
All manufacturers quote efficiency ranges, but depends on how SC match motor as to what part of efficiency band you end up using. An SC could be rated at 80% efficiency but due to misapplication (common) it could be running in 65% band. So don't get too hung up on percentages, look at results and if results are good then that product is what you want to use.
1298 and rollakid, you are right on with your understanding.
Synchron has taken notice of best practice SC system design from Raptor and followed as close as he could, the results say he is doing pretty ok :)
And yes it is Raptor V Synchron is using, Raptor R is only for 1000hp and more and not currently in production.
question: if raptor sc doesn't tap oil from engine, where does it get the lubrication? self contain oil like root type? or it doesn't need any at all?
c20? what engine is that? sorry not familiar with non toyota engine, and can't seem to remember toyota have that kind of engine code..
i thought thats root type and screw type.. i've read from alot of other place saying pro of centrifugal charger's pro is no need maintain/change oil cuz there's no self contained oil, but the con is that it taps oil from the engine.1298 said:
and centrifugal is basically half turbo turbine already, make sense if they tap oil from engine, thats why i'm abit supprise hearing raptorsc said their blower doesn't take oil from the engine, thats why i'm asking cuz its new to me.
The only centrifugal S/C with self contain lub will be procharger!
You guys got some miss understand! Raptor S/C are self contain but not Lubricated but internal belt driven, just like the Powerdyne! Similar to this!
http://www.powerdyne.com/silentdr.htm
You guys got some miss understand! Raptor S/C are self contain but not Lubricated but internal belt driven, just like the Powerdyne! Similar to this!
http://www.powerdyne.com/silentdr.htm
"Raptor centrifugal superchargers have a self-lubricating system, no oil is needed from the engine." - http://raptorsc.com.au/products.php
The above says it all, "self-lubricating system", "no oil is needed from the engine".
"Self-contained" means it has self-contained lub. Every supercharger unit is the same - needs lub, and every mechanical device needs lub. :regular_smile:
All SC units are external belt driven and internal gear driven. There is no belt inside the housing.
Cheers. :shades_smile:
The above says it all, "self-lubricating system", "no oil is needed from the engine".
"Self-contained" means it has self-contained lub. Every supercharger unit is the same - needs lub, and every mechanical device needs lub. :regular_smile:
All SC units are external belt driven and internal gear driven. There is no belt inside the housing.
Cheers. :shades_smile:
Last edited:
Raptor Lubrication
OK here is the definitive answer
Raptor has no oil, needs no oil and is never connected to any oil supply.
Raptor bearings only have small quantity of high temp grease to lubricate the ceramic bearings. Ceramic bearing require little or no lubrication since Silicone Nitride (ceramic) is self lubricating when run against a high carbon steel surface like inside of ball bearing races.
Internal drive is high speed belt which is easily replaceable, so, for all intent and purpose Raptor transmission is a DRY transmission. How's that for technology, well we have certainly made use of tech.
OK here is the definitive answer
Raptor has no oil, needs no oil and is never connected to any oil supply.
Raptor bearings only have small quantity of high temp grease to lubricate the ceramic bearings. Ceramic bearing require little or no lubrication since Silicone Nitride (ceramic) is self lubricating when run against a high carbon steel surface like inside of ball bearing races.
Internal drive is high speed belt which is easily replaceable, so, for all intent and purpose Raptor transmission is a DRY transmission. How's that for technology, well we have certainly made use of tech.
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