Project Z Week 23: Spare Z31 Chassis

[[PIMPIN]]

i believe its better to ask tom to give out an official statement. ive ONLY have an email from him saying i am allowed to use zth as platform to ask for sponsorship. thats it. tom could have given me 10k from the beginning and asked me to build this car. but no. my form of security to him is, a bank loan with alliance bank of 11k, 10k for car purchases, 1k for the rest of the acquire and fixing costs. with that i am commited to the bank for 2 years. should i am dismissed from my job early. i will have to deal with the losses in acquiring a junk car. i put my good faith trust on tom. thats how it is. so far only 5/24 months has been repaid.

Can you please explain this in more detail? From what I understand, you asked if you could use this forum to ask for donations prior to buying the car? Or did the idea of asking for donations come from forumers later on? Which is it?

How is your bank loan any security to Tom (sorry for dragging Tom into this)? Are you saying you are a salaried employee for ZTH and you took out a loan under your name and the instalments are paid out of the salary that Tom pays you?

 

[gobiz2]

gobiz2

if that is the way to go, i will proceed doing that for assurance. i think it was discussed long ago how the money would be spent. each thermometer suggests how the money will be spent and what reasons

i believe its better to ask tom to give out an official statement. ive ONLY have an email from him saying i am allowed to use zth as platform to ask for sponsorship. thats it. tom could have given me 10k from the beginning and asked me to build this car. but no. my form of security to him is, a bank loan with alliance bank of 11k, 10k for car purchases, 1k for the rest of the acquire and fixing costs. with that i am commited to the bank for 2 years. should i am dismissed from my job early. i will have to deal with the losses in acquiring a junk car. i put my good faith trust on tom. thats how it is. so far only 5/24 months has been repaid.

the car will be in possession for 2 years. nothing will change. even my contract with sponsors will be a minimum 2 years to display, when our contract starts. the only thing i could say is, i could sell of the car and restart another project, if that HAS to happen, but i dont foresee seeing it

you can quote my words to put urself on self assurance. as i am a employee and not an employer to the company, i cannot put out legally binding documetns.

i have every right to the car. if it completed, i will drive the car around as a how scooby doo would have their mystery machine. a way to actually show the car around to the public. but my promises is that it will be unsold for a minimum of two years. even so, you have to acknowledge the hard work that goes thru in negotiating all the sponsorship. that's how i see it.

you can quote my quote, and can be seconded by another person quoting my text. this is to be fair and just. i will post on zth future updates, that both of u will be able to testify against me if stuff goes wrong. my full name and bank account is listed on top, so feel free to bring legal issues to me.

Now that's a step in the right direction.

Once you sign a contract, and say you break it eg. if you sell the car for some reason, your sponsors can sue you.

Also once you prepare a proper proposal, if for some reason your donors do not find that you have kept to your word to complete the project and allow them access, they can sue you.

Also any individual can provide legally binding documents. Otherwise no one will be able to buy property, secure study or business loans etc.

 

[Kevin Lee]

Can you please explain this in more detail? From what I understand, you asked if you could use this forum to ask for donations prior to buying the car? Or did the idea of asking for donations come from forumers later on? Which is it?

How is your bank loan any security to Tom (sorry for dragging Tom into this)? Are you saying you are a salaried employee for ZTH and you took out a loan under your name and the instalments are paid out of the salary that Tom pays you?

Hi PIMPIN

Thing is, when I started the project with Tom, he was less busy. I suggested we needed an all rounded FR car, that could perhaps participate in major motorsports events.

Coming from my enthusiasm, I spotted this car on Mudah, a Z31. This car seems to be fairly rare. I have googled around and realised on one article, that Z31 was a nice pocket rocket.

About Z31Parts.com

Why the Z31? Why this car?

While often entirely overlooked by auto enthusiasts, many people don't see that the Z31 platform has great potential. Sadly, unlike other cars, there is severely under-developed aftermarket support. My experience is that most "car" people don't even know what a Z31 300ZX is, and many who do just see it as a slow and boring (read: stereotypical) 80's car. Oddly enough, these are usually the same people whom have never even driven a Z31 300ZX, let alone owned or modified one. "Once you get inside a Z, a Z will get inside of you" is an old Nissan slogan that really rings true with these cars. The platform blends a very well-balanced chassis (50/50 weight distribution for most models, and fully independent suspension) with a smooth, responsive and overly stout powertrain. With many other areas that can be vastly improved upon, they offer a very good platform for building a budget street rocket or race car. Unfortunately, very few aftermarket companies have embraced the Z31 300ZX to help shed it from its highly ill-deserved "red-headed-stepchild" persona...

So I approached Tom with a proposal, that I wanted to bring in a car project to educate the mass about the oldschool movement in Malaysia. Originally I wanted a Nissan Skyline C10 sedan, but as I said, I didn't wanted to mess with the heritage. So I decided on a coupe that looks good in my eyes. Tom has allowed me to ask around for sponsors before I started the project and reascertain by email thats what I can do.

I've written an email highlighting what we should do, the direction of the project and what aims we were to get. My initial budget was much lower, however, it spiralled up when there was so many hidden costs.

Yes I took a loan from Alliance bank, totalling RM11,000 for the project, so far the car has been repaid 5/24 periods. So I hope you have mercy on me. Whatever I contribute to Zerotohundred goes back to the car. Which is why you could safely understand, why should I have the full control of the car.

I appreciate if you would talk to me on the phone, because, it can be very lengthy to talk it all up. I've known v-spec for years now and he could account for my character. if anything u think u might be misunderstood, i believe u can ask him about me.

 

[[PIMPIN]]

when did i started to ask donations? it was when i decided that we needed an engine, then we started the 2.8k donation box. then later on, with the problems found in the condition of the car. we had to splurge out a surprise amount of 4.5k to speed things up. i was hessitating at first to start the box, but some forumers suggested it. i asked tom and tom approved. then i created a paypal account which both of us can access. i record down every donation money on the thermometer and the transaction slip every week in post, is that not good enough? even if the money can't be get from the donation box, at least i am straightforward honest to my corporate sponsors. remember, the money can come from many avenue and it will be how i will disclose it.

So I approached Tom with a proposal, that I wanted to bring in a car project to educate the mass about the oldschool movement in Malaysia. Originally I wanted a Nissan Skyline C10 sedan, but as I said, I didn't wanted to mess with the heritage. So I decided on a coupe that looks good in my eyes. Tom has allowed me to ask around for sponsors before I started the project and reascertain by email thats what I can do.

It's not your character I'm worried about rather the way you went about this whole project. And what of the above? Plus, are you educating us or fund raising for ZTH? And the timeline as to when you decided to solicit donations?

 

[Izso]

Ok, I believe I have a better understanding of the folks here. Please do correct me if I err.

Instead of discussing what ifs and what nots, let me try to summarize what needs to be done by Kevin based on th feedback from the folks here and at the same time clarify what it is Kevin is trying to share.

Kevin needs to be openly transparent with the costing and the sponsorship & donation money. Post up costs, monies spent and what needs to happen after this as and when the project progresses.

Kevin started this member donation based on feedback from members, got approval from Tom to proceed with this and donors transferred to his account and he posted up who contributed what.

As for the ownership of the project, the car is officially owned under Kevin personally because he paid for the car in the first place. Whether the car should belong to ZTH or not, Tom will need to clarify his stand, so instead of having a tit for tat with everyone, let's just wait for Tom to publically clarify what is his stand on the matter. Kevin has already highlighted this issue to Tom and right now we're all just waiting for him to step in to clarify.

What Kevin does during his free time (although his Euro trip was poorly timed, it still is his right to go for a personal trip as when he wants since it is his own money) and what the Skyline club thinks of anyone is not related to this. Personal opinions and items should not be brought in the conversation otherwise this will be an attack on the person. Let's just attack the issue at hand which is the Z31 project.

Lastly I don't like the way this conversation has gone. Kevin had a good idea but poorly executed the idea. Instead of hammering him left right and center, why not just guide him in the right direction without the negativity? Since this is obviously is a public project that involves folks from ZTH, if ZTH wants documentation and public sharing of information, then lets just focus on that. If legality is an issue, then focus on that too. If contracts are required, then lets get this written down and clarified. Please dont throw in mud-slinging here.

Kevin, you've spent a small hefty sum on the project, since the folks are recommending the project be a ZTH project, can you talk to Tom about being reimbursed for your expenses and transfer ownership of the car to him. Regardless of the fact he has 3 cars, one more can be assigned to the company which I believe he has setup since Joeker mentioned "menara ZTH".

I recently attended a course that highlighted the following :

A conversation consists of 7% words, 38% body language and 55% tonality. Since forums are 100% words, the chances of the conversation being misunderstood is very high. Let's just keep that in perspective when replying.

 

[s1tl]

Now lets go back to square one. Just read your reply and in good faith,I am going to try and explain what we expect you to answer. After all faith is given to the deserving..after all that you've done..might as well I try to show some faithfulness in trying to address the problem.

Yeap I got your PM too..its not me you need to answer to I didnt donate anything. Put the answers out here for us to see so then more donation might come for the project.

lol i got called up at 8am and kindof "fired at" just becoz i quoted and like blackhowling's comments and dislike some of the post. u just got PM-ed hmmmmmm

 

[Kevin Lee]

It's not your character I'm worried about rather the way you went about this whole project. And what of the above? Plus, are you educating us or fund raising for ZTH? And the timeline as to when you decided to solicit donations?

Yes, I agree there are things I overlooked, but honestly, on the first page, I did express

"Everything is easier on paper than putting into action"

I am a fan of Mr. Honda for a reason. His vision exceeds the visionary of it's days. Being a motorcycle company and trying to make cars, he went thru a lot. Gone against the government and look at where he is now.

I am educating people on the project. My first initial ideas of sponsors were corporate sponsors. I had asked around and realised that, getting cash sponsors is not as easy as it seemed to be. I must say, perhaps there was no history of Zerotohundred.com every asking for money to build a project car. So by then, I wrote to Tom, to get the project moving, we need cash from somewhere.

Some forumer suggested to me to create a donation box. At first I was hessitating, but I negotiated with Tom and Tom mentioned that

a) Must be transparent , collection by M2U or Paypal
b) Must be minimum donations of RM50

With that, I created a paypal box, with access by both me and Tom, using my email and a shared password.

However, I would not imagine how much damage I have done to myself, ending up with bad rep. People assume I am just putting their money in bad investment. I mean, that's always the initial problems. However, there is always light at the end of the tunnel and I believe you should see it.

Donation box started on 18 August 2011, which until now , only collected

RM500 by M2U and Paypal
RM300 rebate off the RB26DETT we will buy from Fong Seng Autoparts

I am still finding funds for the remaining RM2500 for the engine as I had disbursed RM500 for the project for the spare parts car. It was necesary as I stated from the posting above.

I hope this will answer you, PIMPIN.

I realised you were at first very supportive of the project and later went into disliking me for reasons unknown to me. Now I realised it all and I'm willing to tell it all. I really did not want to involve everyone in my personal problems, because of confidentiality, but I guess, it will not left in peace if I didn't tell whats going on.

I will pledge to be as gentleman and honor my words to finish the build. For my Honda, I am dealing with parts shortage. Unlike the SKyline, which spans from R32 to R34 with RB26DETT parts a lot. Parts were often held by collectors overseas as there are no parts available in Malaysia. I have to beg them to sell me their parts. I recently acquired a Cylinder head using my own money to finish up the project and it costs 620 CAD, or RM2000.

I hope you might look into helping me acquire the Skyline engine, as I am really hitting my head on the wall. Trust that I am a gentleman of words. Thanks

---------- Post added at 07:35 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

lol i got called up at 8am and kindof "fired at" just becoz i quoted and like blackhowling's comments and dislike some of the post. u just got PM-ed hmmmmmm

oh please come on, i was calling u up on a friendly basis to tell you the troubles i go thru with life. stop twisting my words with no valid verbal proof. thanks

 

[mizunori77]

here are my thoughts on your project, whatever it will turn out to be later on upon completion.

1. as what pimpin has mentioned, the goals of your project has changed numerous times. it is like shifting the goal posts whenever you think you can't meet your target.

for someone taking on such a restoration project, sorry la... your integrity sucks big time and i dare say that many more people cannot help but sympathize with Tom (both verbally and silently) that you have somehow turned ZTH into a joke for the past few months.

2. the main thing that pisses people off is that you have the audacity to ask for money and parts, and now a spare chassis to satisfy YOUR OWN desires.

at the end of the day, the chassis was picked by YOU, and the engine was picked by YOU too. if you really wanted this to be a ZTH project, poll the forum members and NOT decide on the chassis and engine.

3. consider your current status.

3.1 what separates you from the others that you think people should contribute to your own personal project? are you a renowned race car driver that you can guarantee RoI to your sponsors and contributors?

3.2 what gives you this ridiculous confidence to label those who doubt you as "unbelievers"? you have no track record whatsoever and if not for ZTH and Tom's "greenlight", do you think your words hold any water?

3.3 you said that you are a student. i assume you have yet to graduate and commit yourself to a full time job where we all get driven nuts by our bosses and yet we patiently save up to buy our dream car or to mod our own cars.

you come in high and mighty and start judging all those who frown upon your immaturity in project management and expect people to take your word as guarantee?

to us, you are just some spoiled brat who cannot see beyond your own fantasies while you expect everyone to accept your ridiculous goals.

there are hundreds of talented drivers in the Klang Valley alone, judging by the sheer number of participants in gymkhana, autocross, drift and time attack sessions.

if they have a hard time finding sponsors even when they have results to show, what makes you think that you are better than any one of them that people have to accept your word as if you can guarantee success at the end of your project?

4. judging from the way BH, pimpin and gobiz has responded to you, you should be thankful that these people are talking to you properly, and not just diss and piss on your project without any reason.

are they haters? or are you too proud to admit that you have miscalculated or mismanaged your own car project after 23 weeks had passed?

humility goes a long way. hiding behind ZTH's name sake or Tom's green light WILL NOT GAIN YOU RESPECT AND CREDIBILITY.

to those who have donated and sponsored your project, you OWE it to them to disclose full details of your project.

if you do not wish to disclose details, then DONT use the word transparent because it is very misleading.

5. you are a stranger to most of us, just as we are a stranger to you. however, we are telling you how it works in real life. don't expect the world to revolve around you.

and we are saying that your project sucks big time, and it is affecting both Tom and ZTH's credibility.

can you imagine if other members start bugging Tom to start a project similar to yours? what will ZTH become? some donation box forum for people who don't wish to spend their own money for cars?

as you are under ZTH's payroll, ask yourself if you have put your self-interests above the forum's? at the end of the day, as you have said, the car is registered under your name.

 

[Tom]

hi everyone, it's my turn to say a few words.

I am not here to side anyone but to clear the air a little and lighten things up a bit.

This Z31 project began when Kevin mentioned he'd love to start a Z project that is cheap to purchase and is recognized by the hardcore JDM fans. Looking at the progress of the Honda S600 he's been building, Skills aside, It's no doubt that everyone agrees he's definitely got passion with restoring cars.

He needed a platform where the project would receive substantial interest to help generate resources through sponsorship either in form of products or services from the car industry. I judged this project to be of a noble cause where the step-by-step documentation of the project would inspire would-be restorers or builders with their own projects.

So how does this relationship work?
Kevin Lee brings his Z project to the ZTH community.
ZTH allows Kevin Lee to publicize his Z Project as ZTH Contributor.
Kevin Lee contributes to ZTH through car and project article entries.
ZTH reimburses Kevin Lee with a small monthly salary for the effort.

I also gave Kevin Lee the green light to accept donations to further boost the project's health. All this in the name of love for building cars.

I have to admit that passionate Mr. Kevin Lee is rough on the edges and has to learn the ins and outs of handling this public project especially when dealing with people but let's not just look at the ownership of the end result Z-car, or disputing whether Travel connoisseur Kevin Lee is financially capable of building the car with his own money.

He is very committed to bring this Z car to life and has decided that this would be a publicly funded project. Kevin Lee may still own the car in the end and the money contributed may just be stickers on the car. In the end it is really up to the good Samaritan to justify his investment made.

Whether how worthwhile your RM50 or RM100 is to the project for just a sticker, name acknowledgement and a weekly update of Kevin Lee's Z-Chronicles to laugh at him hitting the wall yet again or be touched as he makes a breakthrough, is really in the eyes of the donator.

Kevin Lee has been significant investment to the Z31 project and now with the donor Z31, It simply is a must for him to follow through with it.

So, to help Kevin Lee and the Z Project gain acceptance by the ZTH community, What shall Kevin Lee do next?:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)

---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 07:42 PM ----------

I also hope no one is offended by what i've said and sincerest thanks to all who've contributed their thoughts and opinions to this issue. Also thanks to all who've raised this issue for the livelihood of ZTH

 

[Kevin Lee]

Hi Tom

I am glad that you are clearing up the air. Your word is worth 1000 words, compared to mine. The echo bounces much further than mine. My roar definitely cant quiet the angry bunch for sure!

I am glad you can summarise in a good way how this is being done. I agree im terrible with PR, but I learn here and there about this. I make mistakes in the projects, some oversight. Learning from it makes like a good resource for people who wants to start restoring and doing up their cars I hope, but I've been viewed very negatively of my actions on how I portray it. I really hope there would be no more problems in the future and hope that the light is at the end of the tunnel. Sorry if I offended anyone, but I really had to be careful to not jeopardize ZTH.

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Iszo,

I respect the fact that you're trying to mediate this. I'll admit it started off as an excellent idea - which was fund raising tool for ZTH. I'm just questioning the sudden shifts in scope of the project. The lack of receipts etc are secondary to that as I had promised to donate an F-Con for a vehicle to be used to raise funds not to be raced in some classic car championship.

And also if you note Kevin's own posts contradicts himself as to when he started soliciting funds and for what reasons. This is misrepresentation and I among others feel that we have been told half-truths.

No one is recommending it to be a ZTH project, it was already portrayed as being such from the start. There's the lack of transparency more than one person has pointed to. And furthermore, my opinions do no reflect the thinking of the Skyline club. Perhaps a few think the same but certainly I'd never dream of speaking for everyone. Plus, some even came forward with extremely helpful suggestions like gobiz2.

And I agree with you regarding the misunderstandings on forums as Blackhowling had already hinted to Kevin that he was way off track many weeks back but for some reason posts went missing. Had Kevin read them properly and understood the meaning, he'd have gotten the message but I guess its too late for that now. Why the posts were deleted when there was nothing vulgar, etc in them? Especially when so many other posts on these forums are much much worse?

Anyway, I'm done with this. It's obvious Kevin will not answer any of the queries I had posted so I'm not going to waste my time. Best of luck with the rebuild, the donations and the inspection.

 

[Kevin Lee]

Pimpin, I hope you could read the above update as to how this works. maybe you might have missed it when typing.

 

[gobiz2]

Many thanks Tom for that. I think many of us here are just expressing legitimate concerns with this project.

The primary concern is that public funds and sponsorship are being sought for a privately-owned car, without a clear plan or proper documentation.

I have been a member of large automotive forums in Australia and United Kingdom for a decade now, and I honestly can't remember anything similar to this.

 

[Kevin Lee]

Many thanks Tom for that. I think many of us here are just expressing legitimate concerns with this project.

The primary concern is that public funds and sponsorship are being sought for a privately-owned car, without a clear plan or proper documentation.

I have been a member of large automotive forums in Australia and United Kingdom for a decade now, and I honestly can't remember anything similar to this.

gobiz, my inspiration comes from this video actually

Mighty Car Mods Daihatsu Show Car - YouTube

mighty car mods raised $4478 in total to buy a daihatsu mira

so how does anyone judge that? in the end the car goes to either moog or marty.

i believe that, this idea is new and that youtube video just highlighted it

---------- Post added at 08:17 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------

these are three videos that correspond with the build, in my case it was a write up, as i do not have close proximity to the cars nor video equipment for doing so

Show Car Build - Buying - YouTube

Show Car Build - Fixing - YouTube

Show Car Build - Modding - YouTube

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Many thanks Tom for that. I think many of us here are just expressing legitimate concerns with this project.

The primary concern is that public funds and sponsorship are being sought for a privately-owned car, without a clear plan or proper documentation.

I have been a member of large automotive forums in Australia and United Kingdom for a decade now, and I honestly can't remember anything similar to this.

Yes, and the fact that the project has had three different objectives so far the first of which was noble. The reasons why the scope has changed has still not been answered. I think Kevin thinks he has but I guess we'll never know.


Tom,
Sorry to drag you into this. I guess I've put you in awkward spot having to come out and defend Kevin while at the same time being inundated with PMs etc from a lot of people - long time members and friends alike. However, forums live and die on the people who contribute to it and I believe mizunori77 has summed up the general feeling most people harbour towards this project. Regardless, if there are any charity events such as a car wash to raise money for children with cancer or something meaningful then you can definitely count on my support as mentioned before.

 

[Kevin Lee]

u see, i was not bashing the skyline people, as far as i know and the trend suggests, it looks like ive definitely been bad rep with certain people in the skyline club

ive missed out the word certain and a whole new meaning spawned out. thats why i apologized on it and made corrections to it.

 

[BLaCkHoWLiNG]

funny how a person can tell another off about do not simply say things without verbal proof... highly stressing on proof where as his project has no roadmap, timeline, budget or even blue print... s1tl, i feel your pain... i really do...

Anyway, I believe we as ZTH contributes to the community differently. I will not contribute at all as I have outright no faith in this project. I will however, contribute to Tom and ZTH in other ways... ;)

PS Ramsing - NO! IT AINT STARKISS!

I am glad to see so many of u finally stand out in the open to voice out your concern. I've initially highlighted before but it was either deleted or turned upon by a deaf ear. All in all, what i've done is in the name of protecting ZTH and Tom, coz Tom is my friend.. my best friend in the world.. we share bubble tea drinks under cool 5hp air conditioning with rainbow light lamps shining on brick walls with wet sticky painted tables...

lol x 200000000000000000000000!!!

 

[Kevin Lee]

Yes, and the fact that the project has had three different objectives so far the first of which was noble. The reasons why the scope has changed has still not been answered. I think Kevin thinks he has but I guess we'll never know.


Tom,
Sorry to drag you into this. I guess I've put you in awkward spot having to come out and defend Kevin while at the same time being inundated with PMs etc from a lot of people - long time members and friends alike. However, forums live and die on the people who contribute to it and I believe mizunori77 has summed up the general feeling most people harbour towards this project. Regardless, if there are any charity events such as a car wash to raise money for children with cancer or something meaningful then you can definitely count on my support as mentioned before.

i did suggested charity, but it takes more than one person to get a charity box running. i mean we could bring a bunch of kids to sepang and drive them on it. that was the initial idea.

but that involves contacting sepang authorities to do so. thats the only activity i think we can do to get kids of lesser priviledge to receive such support

i am personally a rotary club member of RC Ipoh. I understand charity and all and have been involved in certain plannings, like Ekiden Run for raising funds for the Tsunami victims in Japan.

I am open to charity thoughts and hope there would be a better plan laid out after this project is done. Right now, the main concern is to finish the car. Without finishing it, nothing can materialise, but you have to trust on good faith, that I will contribute to society and hope you would all support me in any ways possible.

One day, maybe we can work with some corporate sponsors to bring some good thoughts to the motoring world and less fortunate. Maybe the Z car can be a goodies bringer car, to bring all sorts of tangible donations to the less fortunate

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Kevin - I think missing out a word or two would not have landed you in this situation. Read mizunori77's post properly and respond to that then.

 

[Kevin Lee]

funny how a person can tell another off about do not simply say things without verbal proof... highly stressing on proof where as his project has no roadmap, timeline, budget or even blue print... s1tl, i feel your pain... i really do...

Anyway, I believe we as ZTH contributes to the community differently. I will not contribute at all as I have outright no faith in this project. I will however, contribute to Tom and ZTH in other ways... ;)

PS Ramsing - NO! IT AINT STARKISS!

I am glad to see so many of u finally stand out in the open to voice out your concern. I've initially highlighted before but it was either deleted or turned upon by a deaf ear. All in all, what i've done is in the name of protecting ZTH and Tom, coz Tom is my friend.. my best friend in the world.. we share bubble tea drinks under cool 5hp air conditioning with rainbow light lamps shining on brick walls with wet sticky painted tables...


lol x 200000000000000000000000!!!

its alright, i mean, your pockets is safe! anything, so its fine. i've put on my best interests to the project, yet i had been misinterpreted. I think it was right for Tom for finally stepping in and telling what was I doing in the name of ZTH, as I have brought up the previous issue during our last horn-locking