Alternative fuels : Methanol.. I wonder our govt will like if we do this... :P

Discussion in 'Car Talk' started by shiroitenshi, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
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    So see in every thread, everybody complain about fuel prices, cannot buy performance car la, etc. etc. etc.

    Alternative fuels also have what, like methanol.. our country sells it also..
    Prices is about 1700+ (at the most expensive price, cheaper should be less than RM1 per litre) for 1250 litres (1 litre methanol is 0.8kg)

    RON rating should be more than 110.. hahahaha..

    Of course, this can't be so easily as the Stoich AFR for methanol is less than half that of petrol, so need to double up injector size for the same horsepower..

    Now I know what project to do with my spare B16A.. bwahahahaa.. :rofl:

    Though I doubt govt. will allow this, especially since the major fuel companies here will bising2 since they don't get a slice of the pie.... :bawling: and also the associated dangers of using pure methanol... burning is invisible.. :damnmate:

    Question is, someone can sell me methanol with 99.5%+ purity in 50litres quantities on the cheap?
    Want to play2 with it only. not use for daily drive.. hahahaha.

    Or maybe go ethanol, by brewing it myself... then find myself in the papers with the headline "pemuda ditangkap membuat arak haram" lol... (haram because it's not taxed lol)
     
    #1 shiroitenshi, Dec 4, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  2. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    Even Ford Model T can use alcohol like XO, whiskey, gin etc... :burnout:

    but significant mods needed because ethanol can corrode iron and some other problems ....

    ...and the most concentrated ethanol fuel is 85% ethanol known as E85 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:E85_fuel.svg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/92/E85_fuel.svg/220px-E85_fuel.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/92/E85_fuel.svg/220px-E85_fuel.svg.png

    ...but I do hear some racing team in Malaysia uses ethanol mix as their racing fuel... maybe your plan can be use kot?

    hehe.. sorry for the heavy reference to wikipedia.... i'm obsessed with them hehe...

    but i think the scenario here in Malaysia, the govt are leaning towards bio-diesel... a way to promote more palm oil I guess :hmmmm:

    As for me, while waiting for hydrogen cell cars became more viable... a diesel-hybrid or flexfuel hybrid is the way to go...

    ...in the mean time, does anyone have a mobile fusion reactor and flux capacitor? need 1.21gigawatts of the power to beat my noisy neighbour "high performance" saga :rofl:

     
  3. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
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  4. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    Dang! forgot bro :adore:

    since you knew the drag satria, you might hook up with the owner... maybe he/she knew where to source them...

    I also knew an old timer who race JB series engines (from daihatsu) using ethanol... he says it was much better than hi octane petrol... but he cancelled his experiment since he retired not long afterwards

     
  5. savahn

    savahn Senior Member
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    Hmmm... there is a slight flaw in the logic?

    One would pay RM 1 for 1 full tank but can only go about half the distance of regular RON95. So essentially, you are paying more than RM 2 for the same distance. What really kills you is the need for more servicing and expensive parts because of internal damage via corrosion.

    The only way out of this is to use a flex-fuel car.
     
  6. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    Yup... need to increase compression and/or force induction to gave it more mileaege (Ethanol fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)...

    ...else need to use E85...

    We live in a country that export palm oil so naturally biodiesel is pushed... If we like Brazil who export sugar cane, we might have E85 filling station all over the country...

    no more RON95 vs RON97 debate anymore...

     
  7. speed2horizon

    speed2horizon Senior Member
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    Crank n conrods are.... lolz
     
  8. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
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    @papagoines
    he bought a drum, and I want to use as experiment so require a little bit only.

    @savahn, ethanol isn't new, and some pumps at foreign countries have 5-10% ethanol in their regular petrol already, the issue with it is that you can't leave store the engine easily, if you use it everyday, it's not an issue as rust tends to form on non moving parts only, and the only parts exposed to ethanol are in the combustion area only.

    as for the price, those prices I quoted are in meager quantities. economies of scale can make them cheaper. and do remember these are RON110+, not the RON95. I think you can ask around sunway for the prices of RON100+ fuels to keep things in perspective. Hint: the cheapest is 6 times our ron97. if power isn't a concern, might as well use ron92, even cheaper than ron 95 if it is made available.

    The reason I'm bringing this up is that in developed nations, there are incentives for people to run alternative fuels, while in Malaysia, our laws tend to favour buying lacklustre cars for absurd prices, running petrol..

    It took them ages to accept NGV as an alternative fuel.

    Another is that by having people with alternative fuels, we are no longer at the mercy of fuel prices.. ethanol can be distilled at home, though the current laws makes it illegal..lol,

    Actually i wonder why our proton R&D people don't even consider making alternative fuel cars as proof of concept. still playing around with underpowered IC engines. with ethanol, can make 100+hp out of 1000cc's already.. Macam duduk saja buat lukisan/copy performance part designs/improve existing designs only... innovasi my foot.

    ---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 02:13 PM ----------

    if those parts are exposed to ethanol which is supposed to be in the combustion chamber, your car should be overhauled already... hahaha. found petrol in your oil sump lately?

    tbh, the liners are lol, but if you keep it running, rust shouldn't form there.. heck even our current petrol sometimes have water mixed in.. try open your engine head and leave the block exposed to air in a closed garage for a week... no rust? :P this happens even on low humidity regions, so it's not our weather.. that's why before storing engines, always lube the liners with engine oil/assembly oil.

    the negatives sounds more like petrol people trying to dissuade the use of ethanol..

    actually the concern is mostly the intake manifoid&non alcohol tolerant fuel lines, but hondas are not iron, and most new cars use plastic, and modern fuel lines are quite tolerant of alcohol.. that's why for an old car like mine, should convert to new lines (hence the AN conversion remark.)

    BTW, these alternative fuels pose more risk due to their lower flashpoint rather than anything else. Good for playing around with, but not feasible for everyday use unless the safety issues are addressed by those who actually STUDY these things rather than an enthusiast like me.
     
    #8 shiroitenshi, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  9. speed2horizon

    speed2horizon Senior Member
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    Haha... Rings too brudder... And the first thing that will fail would be the plugs. And for pure methanol applications, injectors should be 3x bigger. Fuelpumps and regulators too...

    Also the hazardous issue due to smelling methanol from the exhaust.

    Another biggest issue would be, the car is tuned to run on methanol with high ignition timing and compression ratio like 15:1-17:1, say u going outstation, I wouldn't wantnto carry extra 50L of methanol in the trunk under the Malaysia hot weather... Just personal point of view.

    Drag purpose, can use everything stock. FPR uses Works also ok since reliability issue don't concern them. I know of a champion tuner uses methanol.

    For ppl like me, methanol injection would be good enough.

    Since someone mentioned abt biodiesel, infect we're the pioneer test ground in the automotive world. 30 years ago, merc already donated 30engines for the trial run. With the pal oil supply that we have, I don't understand why are biodiesel more expensive than pur diesel. 10B?? What difference does it makes??

    I was once on the study of producing biodiesel from waste cooking oil. Successfully produced with RM2.1 for 1 liter without subsides. Would come cheaper when mass production is involved. Would even come cheaper when all the methanol recovery and heat recovery system comes in place...

    Ahhh... Nowadays, comes with octane booster plak...
     
  10. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
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    True, rings too, but they're usually coated.. but Indy 500 ran methanol before switching to ethanol due to safety, a driver got burnt and no one noticed. Never heard the pit crew going blind during that time.. :P Heck, even petrol has NOx as a byproduct, and no one seems to be running to caution everyone against using it. :P

    True, but for daily purposes, it should be feasible, but the invisible burning aspect of methanol makes it dangerous to handle for non-knowledgeable people.

    Same issues with most alternative fuels, the mileage/capacity issue.. but have to remember that for town driving, any fuel would serve the purpose.. justifying use of alternative fuel on long haul vehicles is difficult.. Most of town/city driving hardly involves high speeds, in fact, for them, using petrol is actually a waste.

    For injector sizing, need to calculate expected hp vs. efficiency and also fuel used... with 5-6:1 AFR, I don't think the injectors meant to supply petrol would be enough for methanol use, ditto with fuel pump capacity, not to mention the hardlines, if N/A methanol, probably can get away with using the stock hardlines, but I don't think so if high hp turbo machines.. But the rest probably stock, yes, because usually running forged parts already.

    Diesel or petrol?
    Diesel engines can actually run a lot of alternative fuels, since they depend on the fuel flashpoint to ignite, unlike petrol engines and the spark plugs.

    Ada orang mau untung... :P

    Nice, but diesel is cheap, esp. the high sulfur shit we use here... if follow euro 5-6 standards, the low sulfur diesel might not be so cheap, heck biodiesel can be a viable cheap alternative than current diesel fuel.

    The govt caving in to pressures from the commercial sector, no one wants to see logistics costs go up.. that's why we have half decade old lorries running around still. You put what ever kind of fuel on those trucks, they'll emit more toxic stuff than a few cars combined.. lol.

    Actually diesel is a great fuel, and the engines are need to be built more robust-ly than petrol engines in the sense of the high pressures involved in the system like a commonrail. Then again, a counter argument would be the required complexities of an ignition system in a petrol IC engine.

    Oh, btw, a bit of trivia.. Rudolf Diesel actually designed the engine to run on peanut oil.
    http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/20011101_gen-346.pdf

    After a century, back to basics? :P

    And he died mysteriously.. perhaps he was too good at what he did.. promoting alternative fuels that challenged the oil giants of yesteryears. (O_o)
     
    #10 shiroitenshi, Dec 5, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  11. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    Malaysia oso got factory produce E85, very high quality 1, but just for export market only... coz gov said malaysian too poor to have it...
     
  12. ^pomen_GTR^

    ^pomen_GTR^ Senior Member
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    E85 was good already if they produced for the masses :adore:


    pagani got special model for using E85..
     
  13. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    the high grade quality E85 produce in Malaysia will selling for rm2.70 per liter while the 2nd graded 1 selling for rm2.20... in Johor oso got a few factory doing E85...
     
  14. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    i take it the factory is not our own national "petroliam" company right? if so, they would push it rather than CNG to the taxis hehe

    if pushing E85, 2 of our GLC company will suffer hohoho because
    1. no one will use petrol anymore haha
    2. no one will by petrol powered car, be it normal or range-Xtender equipped ones... only SAAB and a few small cars made in Brazil.....

    ...here's a thought... E85 hybrid engine running with KERS! :love:
     
  15. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    i guess its own by private but fund from gov...
     
  16. arturo

    arturo nooB
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    u guys know something...our country has the perfect weather to be a major producer of either bio-diesel and E85...i wonder why it isnt happening? so much land...so much wasted land.

    can count with both hands how many variants of diesel passenger cars are here and those that are being sold here are too expensive and treated as a novelty. simple question....why dont we have a diesel P1? not enuff untung to certain quarters issit?
     
  17. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    Hush child! if that 'petroliam' company hears dis, it will the death of both of us!!! :rofl:
    ... just kidding arturo sir....

    As my post before, if we must push it, that 'petroliam' and 'kereta' company must make profit oso to make it possible
     
  18. arturo

    arturo nooB
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    more like lack of will...look at ngv...wanna do like dont wanna do. got for the sake of saying i have an ngv network....but wanna find ngv station is like finding projet last time and when u find one, have to q up long long with the taxi drivers.

    bio diesel has a lot of potential...summore diesels r much much more efficient compared to petrol engines n diesels can run off almost all sorts of oils....lots of potential
     
  19. papagoines

    papagoines Orang Tua
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    agreed to you 100%...

    fall in love with diesel since I drove my fren's 320d touring.... lotsa torque as if you dun really need multple ratio gears....ok, I exaggerate that, but still it suited auto box really well with its immense torque! and that running our low-quality euro-2m rated diesel... imagine if running the super clean euro 4 and above!
     
  20. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    when malaysia no more talkin about some 'ketuanan', '30% for malay' & 'subsidy'... then mayb that time will really got E85, NGV or bio-powered car on the road & popular in malaysia...
    all becos of bad politician who only cares bout their pocket.........
     

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