McLaren has been disqualified from the 2007 and 2008 F1 seasons

[zan]

whatever info leaked out, i think McLaren was the victim. still, they could have denied everything but the truth no one really knows.

employing Nigel Stepney was a huge mistake.

 

[FVel]

A couple of freaking e-mails between drivers discussing a competitor's cars is hardly sufficient to establish guilt beyond doubt, especially since it is commonplace in F1 for drivers to talk about each other's cars.

Is it is crime to talk about a car if you knew something about it ? This happens all the time in F1.

If you want to know the content of the e-mails, it is listed here at the full FIA decision :-

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

Ridiculous decision in my opinion with a penalty all out of proportion to the severity of the crime. If you read one of the paragraphs, FIA made it clear they did not need to prove McLaren actually incorporated the info into their cars, and in fact FIA did not prove anything. How about that ?

Incidentally, I'm no fan of McLaren. I think Ron is dysfunctional and the typically shrewd bastard most people at the paddock have known of him. But in this case, I don;t think McLaren deserve this kind of penalty.

2007, it seems, have brought out the worse in Alonso's character.

 

[coolval]

fvel:
Since schumi resigned i stopped watching F1,
Care to share what u mean by brought out the worst in alonso's character?
so that i can have more reason to hate him.. hahaha

 

[FVel]

fvel:
Care to share what u mean by brought out the worst in alonso's character?
so that i can have more reason to hate him.. hahaha

Alonso was a popular guy in 2005 and 2006 because he acted gracefully on his way to winning the Championship. He wasn't obnoxious and quite the gentlemen. At Monza 2006, his popularity grew when it was felt that he was unfairly penalized for alleged blocking on Massa during qualifying. In-car footage of Massa's qualifying run showed that the Brazilian was nowhere near Alonso during his hotlap. If anything, it was explained that Massa actually benefitted from the draft behind Alonso's car and in fact set his fastest Sector 2 time during that hotlap. Nevertheless Ferrari complained and got Alonso penalized under dubious circumstances. To a lot of people back then, Alonso was seen as a very fair racer who took the fight to Schumacher who is often viewed as a ruthless Champion with a reputation of dirty driving (crashing into Damon Hill to win the title, and attempted to do the samething to Villeneuve).

Alonso came into 2007 confident of his chances, until he unexpectedly met the unprecedented challenge from Hamilton, a rookie. He admitted that this rattled him. Throughout the 07 season, Alonso made a lot of public comments in the press accusing McLaren of playing favourite to Hamilton. Alonso deliberately blocked Hamilton at Hungary in retaliation of Hamilton's earlier disobeying of team orders. At the recent Spa GP, Alonso ran Hamilton off the road in the first lap as they were approaching the Eau Rouge corner. Alonso was also responsible for his part of unravelling McLaren by approaching FIA regarding evidence on the spy scandal. Ron admitted that Alonso had threatened him on this matter if McLaren did not address the various problems Alonso had with McLaren in 2007

Like I said, with his unhappiness at McLaren, and his dislike of Hamilton, it has brought out the worst in Alonso in 2007. Not a very likable guy anymore.

 

[koolspyda]

silverfish, your arguments are the most apt & rightly so about FIA on F1 popularity.

sign, mc laren was my dream team. to see some of them in such low-low moral grounds (heck i know F1 is big business) on spygate puts stains on the sport.

to know about your fiercest competitor secret (car/weight distribution); even if not more than 1% was implemented; & to know the team tactics (going into pit & all) is more then enough to show the lack of gamesmanship from mc laren.

damn, i wish senna & shummi was still driving (real sport racing). too much of back room/technnology thats is overshadowing the racing sport.

 

[kRiminaLz]

huh....
nway, u guys forgot the point here...
eventhough its harsh, bias towards ferrari or whatever it is as it was said by the mc's supporter...
the main thing is, its wrong, its dishonest n no sportsmanship!.. nuff said..
mclaren supporter can say anything so as ferrari... no point..

 

[coolval]

Fvel,
thanks for updating me man..hahah..
Yeah, initially when he joined as a newbie, alonso was my no.2 favourite..
then, when he started ruining My favourite's(schumi) chance of winning,
i started to dislike him.. This might seem biased but as time progressed,
Some of his comments towards schumi, proved that he has a lot of Hot air..
So when schumi retired, i gave up on f1.
BUT hearing now that a rookie like hamilton in the same team as alonso can whoop alonso's ass proves that, He's not the super star he thinks himself to be..

 

[kRiminaLz]

nway, gud source fVel...

 

[FVel]

silverfish, your arguments are the most apt & rightly so about FIA on F1 popularity.

sign, mc laren was my dream team. to see some of them in such low-low moral grounds (heck i know F1 is big business) on spygate puts stains on the sport.

to know about your fiercest competitor secret (car/weight distribution); even if not more than 1% was implemented; & to know the team tactics (going into pit & all) is more then enough to show the lack of gamesmanship from mc laren.

damn, i wish senna & shummi was still driving (real sport racing). too much of back room/technnology thats is overshadowing the racing sport.

To know your fiercest competitor and get one up on him has always been part of the gamesmanship and it has been like this since F1 started.

People are acting as though what McLaren did was happening the first time in F1. It's commonplace. All the teams did it at one point or another and continue to endeavor to know as much as possible about their competitors.

You only have to look back at 1978 when Lotus came out with their T79 which dominated because the car was the first to use ground effects from the shaped chassis undersides and side skirts. Of course, everyone else copied the darn thing to various degrees of success. Tyrell did it even better when they broke into the Lotus garage and had a good look. And Lotus themselves broke into Williams garage in 1980 to check out their FW07 car which was unbeatable on that year. The FW07 debuted partway through 1979 but had reliability problems and missed out on the 79 Championship but really clobbered the opposition in the 80's when Alan Jones won the title in an FW07.

There were also the times when everyone tried to listen in on everyone's else pit radio frequencies. So it's not like these happenings are secret-secret.

Look at 2006 when Renault ran with the mass dampeners and Ferrari got to know about it and then told the FIA to ban the item. What do you call that ? If you can't copy it, then make a case to FIA to ban it. And it has happened previously also, for example, in 1978 when Lotus dominated with their ground effects T79 car until Brabham came out with their 'fan car' which also generated ground effects, that proved superior to the T79. And what did Colin Chapman of Lotus did ? He went to the FIA and convinced them to ban the fan car on argument that it contravenes the 'movable aerodynamic device' rule. Years later when Lotus came out with their double chasis/suspension car, the opposing teams did the same political maneuver and had that banned.

I would say the current situation with Ferrari and McLaren has a lot to do with the same politics that has been going on all the time in F1. A lot of it has little to do with keeping the game fair. Teams have a vested interest in getting another competitor banned just to get ahead.

Everyone pretty much accepts that Ferrari is just as guilty of espionage over the years but the difference is here is McLaren was caught holding the smoking gun. It is not as though McLaren dominated all 2007 season. There were several races when they were distinctly inferior to the red cars, such as at Magny-Cours. It's just that McLaren had managed to convert most of their chances to wins (or at least they finished in the points even if they did not win), whereas Ferrari has been plaqued by a couple of DNFs.

As for your comment on too much technology dominating F1, I would agree with you. Back in the days of Senna, there is less tech but still very substantial compared to say the mid to late 70s. The FIA has proposed a banning of traction control possibly in 2009 or earlier, so drivers will get a lot less assistance from electronic aid. But the march of tech will still continue. When FIA decided to reduce ground effects by banning undercar side skirts, and mandated minimum car heights from the ground, engineers still managed to circumvent the rules for a good number of years due to design ingenuity and it was not until several seasons before they finally closed all loppholes. In any case, aerodynamics have improved so much from the march of tech, that today's F1 cars have cornering abilities far superior to the 80's cars even without side skirts and limited to flat-sided undertrays.

 

[GT3]

well guys, depending on who u support u gonna find the penalty either too soft (words of Ferrari Camp) or unfair (which at this point funnily not the exact words of mclaren, as at the moment they have yet decide to appeal to this penalty for the reason of FAIRNESS or something for F1).. I prefer to stay more neutral and pay attention to the development of the championship as I dont think we being an outsider will really know if these INFORMATIONS is really helping Mclaren or not (coz no1 apart from Mclaren Camp knows if they use the information)

anyway like many of you I also started to pay less attention to F1 after MS retires.. it seems a weird season without MS but lately I think F1 has sparkled more interest in me for a very simple reason, Fernando Alonso. Like him or hate him, with his recent behavior this year it bring out some really interesting dramas.. again, depending if you like him or not these behaviors could be viewed differently

for 1, i think i start to support FA more, I dint like when he complaint last year abt support from renault and etc and he de-camp to Mclaren (coz i dint like ron dennis then) but from what I see this year, in particular in recent races I think FA upped his game to another level. He still complaints, which btw i think they are not completely out of place and his comments probably is being more focused by the media coz he is 1) Double World Champion and 2) he is team mate to wunderkid Lewis and media likes to twist words of FA to make it look more dramatic for their own interest. His game however seems to be different, driving wise it seems he managed to overcome the transformation from Michelin to Bridgestone and mentality wise it seems he has managed to overcome the LH effect and shows his old self from the past 2 season, being calm, focus, solid, totally commited to driving and error free (qualifying, races and etc). I remember seeing his driving around Monza this year and I thought 'DAMN, this bugger is really commited' then i saw the time and I was like 'WOW! he is so much quicker than anybody else' and from then i regained my interest in f1 coz apart from MS, I found a driver who is worth supporting.. and from what i read from some motorsport journals some journalist are thinking the same thing as well.. and fyi they are British

was he wrong in passing the information of his emails to FIA? maybe, if you are a Mclaren supporter but dont u think as a supporter u would like to WIN the Championship without these INFORMATION in the name of FAIRNESS? of coz if im a mclaren supporter I probably wont care if they are in the team's possession but honestly then I couldnt complaint if i were penalise by it afterwards coz my team took a risk with it, then again this is only my thought, some of you might argue abt it on the ground of Mclaren did not use the information but then I mentioned it earlier NO ONE really knows.. probably even RON wont know as Mclaren is a big organization and designing the car requires big team effort, if any member of the team who has knowledge abt these information suggest something similiar to be incorporated in the design of the car or new upgrade parts, no one will know. same thing abt race strategy.. anyway coming back to it, Ron Dennis actually ENCOURAGE FA to pass it over initially so I dont think u can BLAMED FA for BACKSTABBING the team

last but not least, I am actually more open to Ron after this SPY incident, i think he is afterall not a whinger I thought he was couple of seasons ago. I was really impressed with his principal for Integrity and the way he is protecting the team. Only unfortunate thing that he got penalised by something he dont have complete control for it. But then thats racing (or any team sport), as long as any member of the team break the rule and get caught its the team's ass on the line. u cant blame someone for doing something the team did not agree, u can only stop them from doing it. so there isnt really any excuse for it.

U WIN AS A TEAM, U LOOSE AS A TEAM

 

[virtouso vvti]

from this so-called scandal, now i know why the heck McLaren threatened the FIA in recent season to pull out of F1 and establish GPWC (if not mistaken) if you guys still remember... they should have done it years ago...

USD $100 million fine?? gimme a break... once again the influence of Ferrari has been recognized by the FIA.. shissh... might as well change the name to 'Ferrari 1'..

thumbs down to the FIA :thumpdown:

 

[BlackSamurai]

FVel, thanks for sharing the PDF.

I glance through the paper, what caught my eye is 3.9

Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following:
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that.”

wow, up until that detail. (Kimi indeed stop for his first pit in Australia GP at Lap 18, source
:http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/03/18/raikkonen-storms-to-melbourne-victory/)

Looks like McLaren has an upper hand on Ferrari's detail both technical and tactical info even before the season start.

my question, who the hell instruct DLR and Alonso to contact Nigel for Ferrari info in the first place? Driver dun simply send to opponent ex-employee without any instruction (imagine how serious is it if Nigel received such mail and he is not on the same side as McLaren). It's not mention in the evident list if i'm not mistaken. There are darker side off the ring.

Hamilton might be innocent (and hence he trust Ron and his team to be innocent), because at March, he is just a F1 newbie with GP2 champion in hand.

 

[BlackSamurai]

IMHO, FIA is not stupid, both McLaren and Ferrari are biggest player in F1, the revenue both brings to FIA are the highest, it will bring uncountable damage to the sport (as well as FIA income) if any one of them pull out from the sport.

Both WDC and WCC championship are still open before Thursday, I don't see a point why FIA wanna nail down McLaren out of no reason (just because Ferrari merajuk (nagging)? I doubt so.

In the past, ppl were saying that FIA side Schumi, now after Schumi retired and such thing happen, ppl blaming FIA side Ferrari.
I'm glad that Schumi retired before all this scandal happen, else it will be another FIA side Schumi story goes round and round in the forum.


With my finger cross, unless FIA bosses wanna run F1 business like WWF (or WWE) , which I don't see a reason FIA wanna do this monkey show, I didn't read any report stated that F1 TV coverage goes down,
With F1 newbie Hamilton Vs 2 times WDC champion Alonso bring more than enough headlight to the sport.


just my 0.02 cents.
PS: Don't flame me, I didn't read the posts you guys posted up there before I reply these 2. I'm not with any side, I hope.

 

[BlackSamurai]

I was told that Alonso use those email to threaten Ron Dennis to have higher status than Hamilton (but withdraw later), this boy is good, isn't him?

of course that might just between Alonso and Ron, Ron might wanna blackmail him

 

[FVel]

FVel, thanks for sharing the PDF.

I glance through the paper, what caught my eye is 3.9
wow, up until that detail. (Kimi indeed stop for his first pit in Australia GP at Lap 18, source
:http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/03/18/raikkonen-storms-to-melbourne-victory/)

Looks like McLaren has an upper hand on Ferrari's detail both technical and tactical info even before the season start.

my question, who the hell instruct DLR and Alonso to contact Nigel for Ferrari info in the first place? Driver dun simply send to opponent ex-employee without any instruction (imagine how serious is it if Nigel received such mail and he is not on the same side as McLaren). It's not mention in the evident list if i'm not mistaken. There are darker side off the ring.

DLR and Alonso did not contact Nigel directly and this is not evident in his e-mail. All DLR said was that the info came from Mike Couglan via Nigel Stepney. Presumably, DLR heard about Couglan having the info and asked him about it and how he got it. Couglan must have told DLR the info was from Nigel. DLR then told Alonso the details.

 

[koolspyda]

alonso came out in the open about the "conversation" on the "leaked" info. ron "backed" him on his "truthfulness".

the conspiracy theorist will speculate would alonso have done so if he was leading in championship (& no hamilton contending as closely as he is)?

for nigel to be able to convinced mc laren on the accuracy of prancing horse race strategy on season opener, it likely more likely more "damning"
info to scupper ferrari chances on following races.

it like in the case recently (EPL) where the team players line up was sms texted to the opposition just before the game. cant remember which team but that player was reprimanded. so draw the parallels from there

 

[FVel]

What actually happened with Ron Dennis and Alonso's role in respect of the new evidence was this :-

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070915210434.shtml

Ron attempted to pre-empt Alonso's threat by going to Mosley but made matters worse by lying to Mosley. In effect, Ron said there were no such e-mails. As you can see in that weblink, Mosley initially accepted Ron's statements but did some investigation of his own when Italian Police produced SMS communication related to the spy scandal. The rest is now history.

 

[boy dtn]

mclaren deserved it..should respect another team

 

[skylin3lov3r]

great.finally the MCcheaters/MCrari/MCpencuri can rot in hell.LOL.

 

[zephyr3d]

Alonso Walking McLaren Tightrope

In any other walk of life Fernando Alonso would have been handed his P45 and told to sling his hook.

Alonso has so far displayed a brazen disregard for authority and an unsporting desire to succeed to such a level that one wonders just how far he will stoop to achieve his aims.

The fact he is not at present wondering where his future may lie is courtesy of McLaren team principal Ron Dennis, who has somehow managed to stifle what must be an irresistible urge to sack Alonso.

However, there is almost certain to be a parting of the ways at the end of what has been a turbulent year for the team given Alonso's position is seemingly untenable.

The revelations from the transcript of last Thursday's World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris appear to indicate there is no way back for the 26-year-old.

Dennis has described his relationship with Alonso as "extremely cold", adding that was "an understatement", and further rubbing salt into the wounds by describing the Spaniard as "a remarkable recluse".

They are amazing admissions by Dennis regarding the two-time world champion, whose refusal to accept parity with team-mate Lewis Hamilton has led to the 'no way back' scenario.

Alonso's is clearly an ego that needs massaging, otherwise toys are likely to fly.

They did so to an alarming degree in Hungary last month, initially in the direction of rival Hamilton, whose own display of petulance in ignoring team orders to Alonso's detriment led to blatant and childish retribution from the Spaniard.

Deliberately blocking Hamilton in the pit lane in qualifying led to Alonso rightly being demoted from pole to sixth on the grid for the race by stewards of the meeting.

It was the act of a man who should have known better, yet that was just the tip of an iceberg that has come close to sinking all that Dennis has worked for in his 27 years as head of McLaren.

After discovering his punishment on the morning of the grand prix, a furious Alonso held showdown talks with Dennis.

During the argument, Alonso disclosed he had email evidence in the spy scandal that could potentially prove damaging to the team.

The revelation, just 10 days after McLaren had avoided sanctions from the WMSC following the initial hearing into the affair, must have resonated around Dennis like a bomb blast.

After informing Alonso it was his duty to pass on any information to the FIA, Dennis instead opted to do so personally to president Max Mosley.

Although Alonso's manager, Luis Garcia, later offered apologies and a retraction on behalf of his driver, it was too late as the damage had been done, culminating in last Thursday's devastating second hearing for Dennis.

McLaren came within a whisker of being thrown out of this season's championship and next, but instead were handed the largest fine in sporting history of £50million and stripped of all constructors' points.

Mosley has claimed he would have kicked out the team for 'cheating', but for an immunity clause in a letter to the McLaren drivers in exchange for information.

Alonso, fearing for the loss of his super licence, duly replied as it was his email exchange with reserve and fellow Spaniard Pedro de la Rosa that proved incriminating.

It is to Dennis' credit he has managed to retain a sense of dignity during his dealings with Alonso because by any stretch of the imagination, his conduct could have led to constructive dismissal.

Dennis insists he is a generous man, affording Alonso the benefit of the doubt, just as a husband or wife would do for their partner should they threaten one another during the course of an argument, only to later regret their ill-judged comments.So what then of Alonso's reported offer of a £10,000 bonus to his mechanics crew to ensure he becomes world champion, and blocked by Dennis as he claimed it would prove divisive?


And what of Alonso's intentional manoeuvre in forcing Hamilton to run wide and off the track at the first corner La Source hairpin in Sunday's Belgian Grand Prix?


A diplomatic Dennis insisted it was just "motor racing", but the look of anxiety captured on his face by the television cameras told a different story.


Alonso appears a desperate man who will stop at nothing to become champion of the world for a third successive time.


Such ignoble desire will not sit well with Dennis, whose preachings this season for equality and fair play among his drivers appear to have fallen on deaf ears for one of them.


While there are many critics who view the fact Hamilton and Alonso are still competing in the championship as an injustice, given the latter's actions, surely it would be an even greater travesty should he again win the title.