Car Alternator or Battery Issue

Mitevo7

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Dear All,

I have a car with 1JZ VVTI engine having consistent battery die on me issue. Symptoms i've detected so far:

1.) Power windows auto mode not working, unless i rev the engine to 2000 rpm
2.) Power windows roll up too damn slow
3.) Idling seems very low and at the point of stalling, when the rev gets about 400 rpm, the battery light turned on
4.) Lights were dimming but it was fixed after i replaced with a new battery (2 weeks old)

The alternator was fixed a week after replacing with a new battery, by replacing the carbon brushes due to its age. The engine starts and runs fine, however the power windows are still working slow. Idling still pretty lousy, at 650 rpm at cold start, but runs fine after warmed up.

One fine day, the battery died on me again, but partly due to the car is in a garage under going cosmetic repairs, the repair guy accidentally left the car lights on overnight. The next day we jump started the car but i doubt the battery is properly charged.

So far our test results as below:

Battery voltage while engine is off: 11.8 v (mechanic commented it is low, as it should be in between 12.2 - 12.5)

Battery voltage after engine started with no accessories on (radio, lights, A/C): 13.5v (mechanic thought it looks ok)

Battery voltage with accessories on (radio, lights, A.C): 13.8v (mechanic said it looks ok)

Honestly i think the alternator still do not produce enough charge or i am just being paranoid.

What are the chances i need to replace the whole alternator unit ?

Thanks,
Ken
 

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Maybe changing the carbon not good enough, other parts high resistance.
My hyundai old alternator also charging at 13.6 to 13.8v. In the morning the kick seems slow.
My VR have a new alternator installed and charging at 14.5v....lol
 

gunnerzz

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Just sharing from experience...Good alternator will produce charging V above 14V with no load.

However this will depend on the idling rpm. at normal 850rpm it will produce that 14V. Below that rpm it wont.

My ol Pajero power window is having turbo mode. Its slower at idle when aircond on.if i rev a bit it will becomes normal speed.speed different is not significant but u cam notice it.

Try maintaining 1200 - 1500 rpm and use the power window, if the speed becomes normal then the power window is not getting enough juice during idle. That could be the same reason the auto mode not triggered at low rpm.
 

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The wiring could have high resistance also, like my two old cars even the starter have added relay......
 

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My Mark X when idle gives between 13.7-14.1v, mostly hovering at 14v. The battery itself (Century Ultramax) when engine off is at 12v.
My son's Swift is higher, idle can reach 14.2-14.4v and the battery itself (Bosch) at 12.2v.
 

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power windows railing checked and clean ? my wira, idle 13.6V 800-900rpm. Cold start higher rpm show 14V.
 

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power windows railing checked and clean ? my wira, idle 13.6V 800-900rpm. Cold start higher rpm show 14V.
The battery max voltage output is 12.6v, since 1 cell can produce max 2.1v, but working range if not mistaken from 11.8v upwards. Most will show 12 to 12.4v. Other than voltage got to see the current too.
Alternator charging from 13.5v upwards, best should be 14v and above....
 

Mitevo7

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power windows railing checked and clean ? my wira, idle 13.6V 800-900rpm. Cold start higher rpm show 14V.
Might be got dirty a little as it sit in the garage for about 4 months. But its was working flawlessly before the battery and alternator issues.

Thanks,
Ken
 

Mitevo7

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Maybe changing the carbon not good enough, other parts high resistance.
My hyundai old alternator also charging at 13.6 to 13.8v. In the morning the kick seems slow.
My VR have a new alternator installed and charging at 14.5v....lol
Now my mechanic recommended to charge the battery to its full capacity first. When revving the engine, the V seems normal to him also its putting out 13.8 with loads. We might need to adjust the idling RPM to be higher so the charge can be higher.

Thanks,
Ken
 

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Now my mechanic recommended to charge the battery to its full capacity first. When revving the engine, the V seems normal to him also its putting out 13.8 with loads. We might need to adjust the idling RPM to be higher so the charge can be higher.

Thanks,
Ken
But the main charge is when you are driving not idling. If park for long time better get those mini charger hook to house AC current....
 

Mitevo7

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But the main charge is when you are driving not idling. If park for long time better get those mini charger hook to house AC current....
Now we added a voltage regulator that increases the voltage as well as regulating it. The test results are as below:

1.) Full Load with accessories on at 2000 RPM (simulate driving conditions) - 14.4 V
2.) Idling with accessories on (A/C, headlights, Radio) - 13.2 (700 rpm)
3.) Iding with every accessories off - 14.6 V

What you guys think ?

Thanks,
Ken
 

^pomen_GTR^

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Dear All,

I have a car with 1JZ VVTI engine having consistent battery die on me issue. Symptoms i've detected so far:

1.) Power windows auto mode not working, unless i rev the engine to 2000 rpm
2.) Power windows roll up too damn slow
3.) Idling seems very low and at the point of stalling, when the rev gets about 400 rpm, the battery light turned on
4.) Lights were dimming but it was fixed after i replaced with a new battery (2 weeks old)

The alternator was fixed a week after replacing with a new battery, by replacing the carbon brushes due to its age. The engine starts and runs fine, however the power windows are still working slow. Idling still pretty lousy, at 650 rpm at cold start, but runs fine after warmed up.

One fine day, the battery died on me again, but partly due to the car is in a garage under going cosmetic repairs, the repair guy accidentally left the car lights on overnight. The next day we jump started the car but i doubt the battery is properly charged.

So far our test results as below:

Battery voltage while engine is off: 11.8 v (mechanic commented it is low, as it should be in between 12.2 - 12.5)

Battery voltage after engine started with no accessories on (radio, lights, A/C): 13.5v (mechanic thought it looks ok)

Battery voltage with accessories on (radio, lights, A.C): 13.8v (mechanic said it looks ok)

Honestly i think the alternator still do not produce enough charge or i am just being paranoid.

What are the chances i need to replace the whole alternator unit ?

Thanks,
Ken

obviously after alternator repair the charging is fine...

your battery if new (and just only accidentally drained once) should be fine...


as your idle speed, its tuning issue...

and slow moving power window...is electrical issue..like grounding/wiring is old and worn
 
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Mitevo7

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obviously after alternator repair the charging is fine...

your battery if new (and just only accidentally drained once) should be fine...


as your idle speed, its tuning issue...

and slow moving power window...is electrical issue..like grounding/wiring is old and worn
As for idle speed, since mine is a converted E46 that still uses old 318ci tachnometer, i think the readings will not be 100% accurate. My best guesstimation, when 650 rpm on the tacho, i should have around 700 rpm. The tuner said he can't do it any higher, or else the engine itself will rev itself to 2000 rpm when we apply and release the throttle before going back to below 1k rpm.

Another findings, when the cooling fan kicked in, the voltage will drop from 13.3 v to 12.7 v, the reading was taken when the car is stationary, to simulate traffic jammes or other bumper to bumper traffic.

Slow moving power window, i might want to look into the railings. Might just dirty tracks, cause all the groundings are revamped.

Thanks,
Ken
 

^pomen_GTR^

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Another findings, when the cooling fan kicked in, the voltage will drop from 13.3 v to 12.7 v, the reading was taken when the car is stationary, to simulate traffic jammes or other bumper to bumper traffic.

if u got like functional obd2 to display (or verify) actual engine rpm...the idle rpm should need no worry...

but if voltage drop from 13.3 to 12.7 (consistently dropping below 13v),
do same test... now with ac on, and full headlights on as well on idle.... to see if there is idle compensation during load or not... (not sure if jz have that function or the ecu function) and see if the voltage drop further means alternator amperage not sufficient...


your radiator fan use jz fan or bm fan?
 

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Yup, agree with bro. pomen. If voltage drop below 13v then you battery not enough charge already.....
 

Mitevo7

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if u got like functional obd2 to display (or verify) actual engine rpm...the idle rpm should need no worry...

but if voltage drop from 13.3 to 12.7 (consistently dropping below 13v),
do same test... now with ac on, and full headlights on as well on idle.... to see if there is idle compensation during load or not... (not sure if jz have that function or the ecu function) and see if the voltage drop further means alternator amperage not sufficient...


your radiator fan use jz fan or bm fan?
I am using BMW fan from M43B19, its supposed to be high speed fan. The voltage dropped to 12.7 when the fan is spinning very fast for few seconds, and voltage recover back to 13.3 - 13.4 v after it slow down.

Thanks,
Ken
 
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Mitevo7

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Yup, agree with bro. pomen. If voltage drop below 13v then you battery not enough charge already.....
Hi,

The drop is momentary and recover back to 13.3-13.4, this was taken only during idling. I am not 1JZ ECU is OB2 compliant or not, but can we actually tune up the idling RPM so that the idling charge is enough?

Thanks,
Ken
 

Mitevo7

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dual speed fan?
From the sound of it when its activated, it looks like a dual speed fan. I remembered there was a year when the original cooling fan will constantly tuned into highspeed mode (real loud from the outside when its spinning very quick) and slow down to normal fan speed after engine reached warm up temperature, in the end we found out the fan switch is faulty and constantly putting the fan into highspeed mode. That burned out the motor pretty quick.

Thanks,
Ken
 

Mitevo7

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Folks,

I have been seeing online and found there's alternator voltage booster module available for certain type of cars. Wondering is there such devices in Malaysia to help with my current issue ?

Thanks,
Ken
 

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Folks,

I have been seeing online and found there's alternator voltage booster module available for certain type of cars. Wondering is there such devices in Malaysia to help with my current issue ?

Thanks,
Ken
Which booster you read up about?
 

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Mitevo7

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Ah... I would not use those things.

I like this guys videos, might help you :
Alternator returned fine, only at low rpm the charging seems inadequate. Besides increasing the RPM (which is out at this moment), i ran out of option to try to increase the voltage output, earth cables are fine and can't seems there's much resistance in the system. Hence comes to this booster module.

Thanks,
Ken
 

gunnerzz

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Did u check or is there any way to check the alternator output at the source meaning at the alternator itself.

After reading this all over again i think there is a bad connection somewhere.
 

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Did u check or is there any way to check the alternator output at the source meaning at the alternator itself.

After reading this all over again i think there is a bad connection somewhere.
But the charge is fine with accessories off, pass 14v....
 

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I am using BMW fan from M43B19, its supposed to be high speed fan. The voltage dropped to 12.7 when the fan is spinning very fast for few seconds, and voltage recover back to 13.3 - 13.4 v after it slow down.

Thanks,
Ken

i see... from the way you describe it...


my suspect would be the alternator amperage not enough for your bimmer electrical...changing into bigger amperage alternator would help in solving this issue...
 

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the voltage should be sufficient... but the amperage problably fell below than what the car body electrical demands... (load too much supply too little)
I'm still debating whether that tiny little booster wire is going to help you. Looking at the thing itself, it looks like it'll probably have some diode to upscale the V, but this will reduce the amperage I suspect and something else is going to suffer
 

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I'm still debating whether that tiny little booster wire is going to help you. Looking at the thing itself, it looks like it'll probably have some diode to upscale the V, but this will reduce the amperage I suspect and something else is going to suffer

i'm more afraid that when this device increase the voltage during load,

it will over-volt the system when the load is taken off from the system (like when fan turns off and ac turns off)

unless if the system auto compensate when the load if lower and keep true to 14v limit
 

gunnerzz

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i see... from the way you describe it...


my suspect would be the alternator amperage not enough for your bimmer electrical...changing into bigger amperage alternator would help in solving this issue...
I just finished reading an experiment paper by Utem student on car alternator.

Lots of interesting info abt alternator such as;
-normally alternator rating is the output it produce when its (the alternator) spinning at 6k rpm. With 1:2 ratio, thats 3k rpm engine speed.
-alternator will produce >12v to overcome the battery internal resistance in order to be able to charge it.

Apart from the basic higher speed will produce more current i also learnt one interesting thing;

In the paper they mentioned about crankshaft-alternator speed ratio. Normal car is 1:2 which means 1k rpm on crank is 2k rpm on alternator. This means to make the alternator produce more output during engine idle we can play with this ratio by changing the pulley size so it spins faster right?
 

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Apart from the basic higher speed will produce more current i also learnt one interesting thing;

In the paper they mentioned about crankshaft-alternator speed ratio. Normal car is 1:2 which means 1k rpm on crank is 2k rpm on alternator. This means to make the alternator produce more output during engine idle we can play with this ratio by changing the pulley size so it spins faster right?

they got it wrong.. (although i'm from utem myself :rofl: )

car alternator doesnt operate on 2:1 pulley ratio...its more than that.. probably atleast 3:1 or 4:1 (see the alternator pulley size vs crank pulley size to get the idea)

2:1 is crankshaft to camshaft ratio....



yes u can change the alternator pulley into smaller one (or bigger crankpulley) to increase the rpm ratio between those 2...

problem is on the market, most is people selling under-drive pulley (which lower the ratio and effective rpm of alternator) for race purpose and use it on the street (wrong concept)....

the reason of under-drive pulley invented for racing purpose, race engine never saw rpm lower than 4.5k rpm...it will spend most of the time at high rpm range..so to reduce alternator speed damage (as well as power steering pump)...race car build install the under-drive pulley....

installing under-drive pulley will make alternator (and power steering pump and ac compressor) working under its designated speed make it worst in slow moving traffic or on idle during traffic jam...

what people on the street is over-drive pulley...

in this jz bimmer case, is ideal solution (if not changing bigger amperage alternator)....but since sourcing the over-drive pulley which definately need to be custom made is freakin expensive, then bigger alternator is the simplest route to follow... because bigger alternator is more common mod especially in car audio shop...
 

gunnerzz

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they got it wrong.. (although i'm from utem myself :rofl: )

car alternator doesnt operate on 2:1 pulley ratio...its more than that.. probably atleast 3:1 or 4:1 (see the alternator pulley size vs crank pulley size to get the idea)

2:1 is crankshaft to camshaft ratio....



yes u can change the alternator pulley into smaller one (or bigger crankpulley) to increase the rpm ratio between those 2...

problem is on the market, most is people selling under-drive pulley (which lower the ratio and effective rpm of alternator) for race purpose and use it on the street (wrong concept)....

the reason of under-drive pulley invented for racing purpose, race engine never saw rpm lower than 4.5k rpm...it will spend most of the time at high rpm range..so to reduce alternator speed damage (as well as power steering pump)...race car build install the under-drive pulley....

installing under-drive pulley will make alternator (and power steering pump and ac compressor) working under its designated speed make it worst in slow moving traffic or on idle during traffic jam...

what people on the street is over-drive pulley...

in this jz bimmer case, is ideal solution (if not changing bigger amperage alternator)....but since sourcing the over-drive pulley which definately need to be custom made is freakin expensive, then bigger alternator is the simplest route to follow... because bigger alternator is more common mod especially in car audio shop...
Good additional info...
 

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in this jz bimmer case, is ideal solution (if not changing bigger amperage alternator)....but since sourcing the over-drive pulley which definately need to be custom made is freakin expensive, then bigger alternator is the simplest route to follow... because bigger alternator is more common mod especially in car audio shop...
You may change to a smaller alternator pulley to increase the rpm but wont that place a larger idle load on the engine? He's already complaining it's not idling well
 

Mitevo7

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they got it wrong.. (although i'm from utem myself :rofl: )

car alternator doesnt operate on 2:1 pulley ratio...its more than that.. probably atleast 3:1 or 4:1 (see the alternator pulley size vs crank pulley size to get the idea)

2:1 is crankshaft to camshaft ratio....



yes u can change the alternator pulley into smaller one (or bigger crankpulley) to increase the rpm ratio between those 2...

problem is on the market, most is people selling under-drive pulley (which lower the ratio and effective rpm of alternator) for race purpose and use it on the street (wrong concept)....

the reason of under-drive pulley invented for racing purpose, race engine never saw rpm lower than 4.5k rpm...it will spend most of the time at high rpm range..so to reduce alternator speed damage (as well as power steering pump)...race car build install the under-drive pulley....

installing under-drive pulley will make alternator (and power steering pump and ac compressor) working under its designated speed make it worst in slow moving traffic or on idle during traffic jam...

what people on the street is over-drive pulley...

in this jz bimmer case, is ideal solution (if not changing bigger amperage alternator)....but since sourcing the over-drive pulley which definately need to be custom made is freakin expensive, then bigger alternator is the simplest route to follow... because bigger alternator is more common mod especially in car audio shop...
I would agree to changing higher amp alternator, the stock 1jz alternator possibly isn't big enough to supply to all those gizmos in the beemer.

I am thinking of 2JZ alternator instead as it is still affordable. What's your opinion?

Thanks,
Ken
 

Mitevo7

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You may change to a smaller alternator pulley to increase the rpm but wont that place a larger idle load on the engine? He's already complaining it's not idling well
I am very aganist under drive pulleys, drove one car with under drive pulleys before and it felt like shite.

Thanks,
Ken
 

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You may change to a smaller alternator pulley to increase the rpm but wont that place a larger idle load on the engine? He's already complaining it's not idling well
with properly charging system set, idle can be tuned further to smoothen it out...
 

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I'm still debating whether that tiny little booster wire is going to help you. Looking at the thing itself, it looks like it'll probably have some diode to upscale the V, but this will reduce the amperage I suspect and something else is going to suffer
That booster thing, seems it cheats the alternator to pump extra 0.6v only as in "This product simply tricks the alternator into putting out an additional .6 volts."
 

gunnerzz

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I am more afraid it over runs the alternator at high speed.......lol
in theory it should not be an issue as the output graph is just like engine hp graph.its output will becomes flat at its peak rpm and above.

minor concern is on the mechanical aspect which are the bearing lifespan, carbon lifespan as its spinning higher that usual.
 

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Dear All,

Got a reply from said supplier of the voltage booster, they do not make anything for my model so i can scrap the item. Guess i need to go with bigger amp alternator to solve my power issue. We retuned the idling screw and now the engine idles at 800 rpm with A/C and radio on, voltage is at 13.6, however when the fan kicks in, it will rob the electricity to about 13.1 v. I can say the feel is better but we need another 0.5 v to ensure all systems get proper power supply.

Thanks,
Ken
 

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Dear All,

I should mention also the battery is located at the back of the car, where as stock 1JZ is at the front, my gut feelings tell me my issue also something to do with the battery locations, which i am using thicker copper wires to connect from the alternator to the battery at the back, there might be voltage drop due to the length of cable?

Thanks,
Ken
 

gunnerzz

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Dear All,

I should mention also the battery is located at the back of the car, where as stock 1JZ is at the front, my gut feelings tell me my issue also something to do with the battery locations, which i am using thicker copper wires to connect from the alternator to the battery at the back, there might be voltage drop due to the length of cable?

Thanks,
Ken
Yes if u are using inferior cable.

Its just like those cheap jumper cable we can buy at hypermart. Most of them just simply wire 120amp at the packaging but when u try to jump start a car, its hardly working and u need to rev the jumper car to assist starting the dead car in order to overcome the cable resistance. I experienced this and decided to buy welding cable and used them as jumper. Now no need to rev anymore unless the dead car is totally dead.

Correct me if i am wrong but that is why TNB uses kV when transmitting power over the distance and reduces it back to 240v for our home to use.
 

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Beyond 20,000 RPM!
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Moderator

vr2turbo

Beyond 20,000 RPM!
Helmet Clan
Moderator
May 11, 2010
29,764
8,315
1,713
Petaling Jaya
Yes if u are using inferior cable.

Its just like those cheap jumper cable we can buy at hypermart. Most of them just simply wire 120amp at the packaging but when u try to jump start a car, its hardly working and u need to rev the jumper car to assist starting the dead car in order to overcome the cable resistance. I experienced this and decided to buy welding cable and used them as jumper. Now no need to rev anymore unless the dead car is totally dead.

Correct me if i am wrong but that is why TNB uses kV when transmitting power over the distance and reduces it back to 240v for our home to use.
Those cheap jumper cable looks thick but if you look at the wire attached to clamp, the wires very thin only, meaning the rubber is thick making the whole wire looks thick.....lol
 

sweelt

2,000 RPM

sweelt

2,000 RPM
Nov 6, 2016
2,282
238
163
Penang
Dear All,

I should mention also the battery is located at the back of the car, where as stock 1JZ is at the front, my gut feelings tell me my issue also something to do with the battery locations, which i am using thicker copper wires to connect from the alternator to the battery at the back, there might be voltage drop due to the length of cable?

Thanks,
Ken
If u slice cross the excess cable (if u have any left over), see what color of the cores. Can roughly see is copper plating or pure copper.
I use welding cable 300A pure copper during battery relocation. Price like double the copper plating cable. All about trying reduce the resistance from battery to everywhere.
 
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