1 Bar VS 1 Bar,whats the difference?

[jinkl]

if we are looking at GSR to plunk in a td05 , erm , the topic has already been discussed in Forced Induction.

 

[jinkl]

as for GSR , much preparation is needed to do it
Fueling , stock fuel pump isnt enough
injectors 390cc is not enough
intercooler larger intercooler is needed or u gonna get a heatsoak
intercooler piping , stock rubber pipings are too small
exhaust , to avoid choke atleast 2.5" pipings

for quicker spool , use 6cm td05 and not evo3 td05 7cm
better option is to hybrid the td04 to a 16g blade and bore the front
u will get quick spool very minimal lag sacrifice unnoticeable
but much larger cfm.

 

[xtremeleo]

lilvee : understood, thanx :)

 

[flamefox850]

http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html

bro hoskos, it would be great if u read this article hehe

 

[bongweeyap]

how about if just change to bigger tubine and stay with the standard gasket???
i know the engine will kong.
but what will happen actually inside the engine why will it knog????
i would like to know more detail.
sifu sifu here can explain not???

 

[xtremeleo]

hmm.. changing turbine have to change gasket meh? i dont think so.. its better to lower ur compression by using a lower CR piston sets compared to adding the height of the cilinder wall.

 

[hoskos]

thanks flamefox for your write-up, lol i just got my line connected in australia, i tot this topic would have died off since my last post.
I agree with your post bro.. i was trying to explain in s more layman term why the volumetric efficiency is affected between the different turbos. With your ideal gas law u're able to calculate the air pressure, tempetature, volume and mass. But you're not able to calculate the actual volume of gas which comes out of the turbo due to the temperature change. Which is why i quoted you how v1/t1 = v2/t2
affects your volume when the t varies.
a td04 at 1 bar will be at say 200 degrees while your gt40 at 100d at operating temp (i'm overexaggerating things abit so it'll be easy on the calculation)
hence using the law u'll find that at 1 bar pressure, u'll get how much volume of air at that given temp.
Cheers

 

[bongweeyap]

hmm.. changing turbine have to change gasket meh? i dont think so.. its better to lower ur compression by using a lower CR piston sets compared to adding the height of the cilinder wall.

currently i m using L2 with 1 bar stock turbine.
now planning to change to TD04 with 1 bar and stay with ori piston and gasket.
can not???
surely u say cannot rite.
but what make it impossible?

 

[xtremeleo]

bro, iam not againts std gasket. iam using one wit higher boost level (witin limits, of course :)), and never changed the std gasket in the engines dat ive mod previously even when using bigger turbines. its not impossible to make a lot of improvement just by boost alone, but the consequences have to be taken into consideration ie can ur ignition timing retard fast enuff when the strong boost of a bigger turbine kicks in? FYI, an L2 turbine, even boosting at the same level as say a TD04, but there r sum difference in performance (usually big difference since the turbine's sizes differs a lot). TD04 is gonna lag kaw2 compared to the puny L2's turbine (obviously, ya?), but once it kicks in, 1 bar is gonna fly across the boost meter, compare dis to d capability of the L2 turbine, which wud not have the same charging capability. charging slowly wud let ur ignition timing retards in time, but will it react the same wit a TD04? dats the million dollar Q, much will say sure can maa.. but in a millionth of a second, can all ur sensors give inputs to the ECU quick enuff to avoid ping which is a sign of detonation? ping doesnt only occur when u can hear it, unless u have a ping detector u wont know if it happens in the slightest.

the ignition timing part is one of the part u have to look at carefully bro, not simply boost out of the safety range and expect it to be safe, even if ur boost meter gives the same reading. 1 bar is 1 bar, but wit different turbines, the effects vary greatly wit the turbine capability.

just be careful k, much poeple doesnt say y their engine goes kaboom, they wont say its because of their mistakes, ie changing to bigger turbine, boost kaw2 and forgetting the tuning part. they ll say, its the mech's fault, wiring, etc.

iam wit std engine rite about now, and booting it hard on cold nites gives me boost cut at only 0.96 bar (reading is from a blitz electronic boost meter), as fast as i let my foot down. dis wudnt have happened when booting it on "hotter" (comparatively) nites, just to give u a glimpse on how safety is taken care off in a std system. FYI, my MAP sensor is good enuff for 1 bar application, so y did it alwiz cut fuel on 0.96 on colder nites but on hotter nites boost cut comes in at 1.12 bar? remember, dis happens wit the SAME turbine, but the effect is quite noticable.. because the air is more dense on colder nites, and charging a certain volume of air lets more oxygen molecules into the combustion chamber in a given time, or more oxygen per CFM on colder nites. CFM stays the same, but oxygen level increases per pulse of air charge. u get me? compare dis wit a TD04, higher CFM reading then the RHF5 (is dis the right series for the L2 turbine?), and charging colder, more dense air at 1 bar compared to the RHF5. whaddaya think is gonna happen?

eliminating ur safety feature isnt a good thing, as a reminder bro if u really gonna boost 1 bar on dat TD04.. unless u have the other vital parts sorted out :)

 

[xtremeleo]

checking back my post, i havent replied about the pistons. i apologies ya..

i havent played wit CR / strokes before so, what i may reply will be limited to what i read and depend much on the theories dat i know.

i read sumtime ago dat instead of using metal head gasket to lower down compression ratio, it is better to use a lower CR pistons set because adding metal head gasket also adds cylinder height and makes ur engine's timing (ignition, cam) mess up. even if u r adding up about 1.5mm of thickness, but dealing wit precise instrument ie an engine (an engine is actually a precise air pump), u musnt take any chances. iam not gonna mention about the usage of those 2mm h/g as i think uve got the picture by now.

and by calculation, ur cr decreases in value wit added cylinder wall height, BUT no stroke added. compared to a set of low comp pistons, nuthin adds up unless the CR decrease down to compensate higher boost application. dis is known to give better effect compared to adding thicker metal head gasket, i cant comment more on this. maybe u wud want to change / mod ur current pistons set to a lower CR and tell us about the pros & cons :)

 

[f8.]

A 2L car simply means that every complete cycle it takes in 2L of air. 4 stroke engines need 2 revolutions to complete a cycle. So at 5000rpm, the 4G63 is taking in 5000/2*2L=5000L of air a minute.

At 5000rpm, 4G93 is taking in 5000/2*1.8L= 4500L of air a minute.

All the above is assuming NA, ie at 1 bar/atmospheric pressure.

Wehn both engines boost at 1bar, thats 2bar absolute so the 4G63 is now getting 10,000L/min at 5k rpm, and 4G93 is 9,000L/min at 5k rpm.

For a given turbo, they quote efficiency at a given pressure ratio(boost) and air flow(CFM/L per minute). SO even at 1bar, the TD04 will be operating a higher efficiency in 4G93 with 5k rpm, vs 4G63 at 5k rpm. Therefore, the air temp out of the turbo should be lower.

If you compare different turbo's on same engine, then the turbo that can provide higher CFM at any given pressure ratio and efficiency will give more power. Note that 1bar at higher rpm means more air flow than 1bar at lower rpm. So naturally any turbo that is able to sustain high boost at high rpm will make more power, at the expense of response.

 

[xtremeleo]

f8 : thanx for dat info bro, gives me a more clear picture :)

 

[xtremeleo]

oh, and btw bongweeyap, i forgot to mention about my fren dat was using L2 and a GTti turbine. he was boosting 1 bar wit it, and crack his block in a couple months. TD04 is twice the size of any RHB5, again be careful when u want to boost 1 bar wit a Td04 witout proper setup

 

[SuPeRtEc88]

oh, and btw bongweeyap, i forgot to mention about my fren dat was using L2 and a GTti turbine. he was boosting 1 bar wit it, and crack his block in a couple months. TD04 is twice the size of any RHB5, again be careful when u want to boost 1 bar wit a Td04 witout proper setup

u mean Aura GTti? if no, RHB5 is slidely abang adik with TD04, sum say bigger :_:

if yes, it's RHB32
1 and da haf la compare with TD04 :_:

i think he/she did this without a standalone ECU, is becoz diff fuel map, when step full throttle, begin 1-4krpm fuel was damn 9 rich, spool after 4-7.5krpm lean at 1bar, sooner or later at this sux coincidence overheating until piston, piston ring certified :confused_smile:, n i suspect d block matter was tat piston ring melt together with da piston until tat block condem

 

[xtremeleo]

supertec, i mean an L2 engine wit a GTti turbine. i dont remember the IHI series dat well, since iam not wit a daihatsu engine. thanx for the info bro, appreciate it.

dat kancil wasnt using any kinda fuel controller, and was just boosting up wit an FCD fitted. wit the safety feature outta the way, he cud boost all he wanted but paid quite a destructable price.. for me, at least it was quite an expensive rebuild.

neway, TD04L is way bigger den a TD04, its like comparing a TD04HL to a TD04L. so, yea what u said mite be true.. the GTti turbine mite look the same size of any TD04, but dont forget TD04 flows more then a GTti turbine.

 

[bongweeyap]

so xtremeleo

in order to chaneg to TD04,what should i mod too????
in an ecomy way.
i head ppl change TD04,gasket, and boost controler only.stay with ori injection.
no e manage or some other thing to adjust the fuel or ignition timing.

 

[beyond_4896]

frm my exp , change to td04 with a piggypack microtech mt4 only..
But b4 i already have a 220L fuelpump la.....

 

[xtremeleo]

bongweeyap : nice nick btw, and thanx for the question. as i never mod an L2 dat extensively, again, what i may say will be base on theories and logic.

economically, u shud make an adaptor for ur new turbine to sit on. i know millennium can provide dis for less den a hundred ringgit, or at least d price tag is around there, the last time i heard it. a banana is usually better, but an adaptor is sufficient enuff. just bare wit its restrictions until u can get a banana fitted in. as i said, metal head gasket adds cylinder wall height hence messes up ur engine timings. i dont say it shudnt / cant be fitted in but do the calculationss rite, timings shud be done according to additional height. its not as simple as putting the metal gasket in, and just let it be. yes, many had done dis and say, "okie maa, mana ade problem!!" but use ur logic, and consider wether what i said r true. u miss on ignition firing, problem(s) may occur out of it. if nuthing happens, then its ur luck, but precission and luck seldomly work together. being precise, u r actually avoiding problems.

regarding on ur injectors, u have to know what is the limit of ur set. sum can be maxxed out, sum cant. or at least what is the max can any typical L2 injectors can handle, u get me? u wont know all this witout hooking ur engine on a proper tuning aparratus, u cant say ur engine is slightly lean or rich just by looking at exhaust puff. a set of wide band is needed in order to see dis, and most importantly a good tuner to set it rite. actually u can play boost as high as what ur fueling system can cope wit, AND what ur block can handle.

regarding the fueling and ignition system, u cant fully utilise dat big turbine witout proper tuning. witout proper tuning, i think instead of using a bigger turbine, its better to make full use of ur std turbine, as i experienced it. the std turbine can be pushed to an extend, it surprised me. wit the experiments iam doing on my current engine, i can get 1 bar of boost as soon as i plant my foot down even on lower revv. iam not saying my engine doesnt lagg off, but i can minimize it by throttle control and sum mods on the turbine and actuator. i once asked my lil brother to mod sumthing on my actuator, and when he drove my car, he accidentally boost to 0.96bar at a mere +-3k rpm, he told me it was lower den 3k rpm, but lets just take it at 3k rpm. dat shows how the std turbine can response to throttle input, FAST!! dat mod costed me the turbine. well, costed me +-RM300 for a new turbine, but was well worth it because i now know what to do in order to get it rite. once the farked up turbine was opened up, i can find anything wrong wit it, but it cudnt boost. dat turbine is now in rebuild process wit sum kacuk mod. i hope i get it perfect dis time

oh, like bro beyond said, use a larger fuel pump capacity. dis wont affect ur FC as u can still tune the fuel pressure once u get an EFN AFR (iklan, hoho.. EFN, belanja minum k), bigger capacity fuel pump ensures ur engine gets the fuel it needs everytime.

 

[bongweeyap]

But metal gasket just adds the height of the cylinder wall and the stroking of the piston still remain the same rite??
Lets put it in the simpler way, I’m assuming when the piston is at the highest position of the beginning power stroke then automatically the plug ignite (with ori gasket). Even I add the metal gasket it doesn’t kacau the stroking of the piston and the revolution of the cam shaft so the ignition timing should be remain the same rite.
It just adding the gap btw the block and the head. But eventually the plug still ignite when the piston at its highest point rite…..(pls explain in detail)
Timing is controlled by cam shaft and the piston position is controlled by the the crank shaft maaaaa.
When the piston is at the highest point the plug ignites. Do u get what I m trying to say????

Did u says tat u just mod the actuator and the turbine ONLY then u get to boost up to 1 bar at 3k rpm and it costed u 300??????

 

[xtremeleo]

whoa, dis thread was left so long dat i cudnt remember what i was posting..

still wit dis issue ya? okie, putting it in simple words.. have u ever changed ur timing belt? have ur mech ever missed a tooth or two during the installation, i mean the tooth of the belt. when dis happens, u can feel power loss as the ignition timing is slightly off. i can give the calculations to u, but my post wud get too complicated.

1stly, u know ur basic well bro. but, know dis as well, engine is a precise air pump. it runs on precise calculations, including the cylinder height. there r calculations involve in determining engine's timing (overall) regarding to its cylinder height and by messing wit dis variable, u r actually messing wit the whole engine's timing. iam not saying u cant / shudnt install a metal head gasket, but rather ask u to be careful ie tune is supposed to be done after dis process is done. the way u r saying, a 1.5mm gap isnt no biggy, but it is.

if lowering compression is as simple as fitting in a metal head gasket, then those big companies dat make lower compression pistons shudnt be making any profit as a set of their pistons cost like thousands of ringgit whereas a siap pasang metal head gasket wud only cost a mere hundreds. who else wanna buy those expensive set if u can get a cheaper solution, rite?

i tell u what, do as u see fit ie install the metal head gasket and post what u experiene here. iam not here to argue iam alwiz right, but iam jus telling what i read and what i experienced previously.

oh, the last part.. i was doing sum rnd on my actuator to make my engine more responsive, by doing dis i got what i wanted (1 bar came in an instant, well it was really 1.12 bar, recorded wit a blitz electronic boost meter) but it farked my turbine at dat time. replacing the unit costed me RM300, it was worth all the cents spent :) good argument points btw