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Wira Aeroback (4g15, 6a10)

Discussion in 'Car Modification' started by niklys, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi all!

    I have a Wira SE stock 4g15 sohc auto 3speed. Now, I am planning to swap my engine to 6a10 dohc automatic. I would like to understand, would the pick up and top speed improve over my 4g15? I'm not a track driver (hoping I would some day to try), but I do drive with a little gentle spirited driving once in awhile when the traffic is clear (mostly speeding/cruising straight roads only).

    Allow me to be honest firsthand. The V6 engine that produces the burbly/refined/aggressive exhaust note is what made me feel keen to swap. Power and pickup is one of my factor too (climbing hill sucks, cant go pass 60), as 4g15 sohc auto really has bad power delivery. However, I'm not entirely sure that the 6a10 is way more powerful or proven to be better than 4g15 sohc (auto vs auto) when it comes to power delivery, except when it comes to reliability (4g15 has better reliability).

    My plans are as below.

    -Swap 6a10 auto
    -Upgrade braking system to evo3 twin pot front, single pot rear, with bigger single servo brake booster, alongside steel braided brake hose.
    -Upgrade front/rear suspension to reduce understeer/nosedive during braking (want comfort setup, with a little road feel, need help here as to what suspension to go for)
    -Exchange my 15 inch rim to 16 inch with decent tyres like michelin ps4 or ad08.
    -Breathing mods (drop-in filter, piping from stock to 1.8", catback exhaust with sport cat-con, exhaust valve open/close system)
    -Replacing CP to LCP with harmonic damper (if there's such a product)
    -Adding ATF cooler (to prevent autobox from frying)

    From the above, would the final result of 6a10 (with or without the LCP) provide me a ride that has better pickup and top speed than my current 4g15 (the 15 inch upgrade to 16 inch might setback my upgrades, i believe)?

    With the above, I've also been wondering. Is it possible to do the below?

    -is swapping/stroking 6a12 2.0l block possible?
    -turbocharging my NA 6a10 engine with automatic gearbox (to gain torque, pickup, low psi with stock internals)?
    -if yes, single-turbo or twin-turbo?
    -if yes again, how should i take care of the management?

    Any sharing, advice, or talks would be great. I'm down for a conversation on this. Though, i am aware that 4g92 sohc/dohc, 4g93 sohc/dohc, 4g93t, should be a better choice. I guess I'm in love with the 6a10, and wanting to swap it with preparation to make the car enjoyable and unique. Thank you for your understanding and sharing! :driver:
     
  2. RENESIS VIII

    RENESIS VIII Senior Member
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    Sounds like an interesting project that you are pursuing over here. Very original and different approach than what most people will do on their Wira.

    I think if budget is not a problem for you, you can go ahead with most of the things that you suggested above. No matter what, the final result in terms of pickup and top speed will be better than your 4G15 since 6A10 had the advantage of higher displacement, higher output and more cylinder than 4G15. Just with the full exhaust system upgrade alone will give you some noticeable power gain compared to stock.

    Swapping to 6A12 block might be possible but I don't think you can get that done legally. If you are talking about reboring and stroking your 6A10 block to 6A12, I don't think that is a good idea since the increment in displacement is 400cc and that is quite a lot. As for turbocharging your 6A10, that sounds like quite a lot of hassle. Perhaps you might need a lot of parts from 6A12TT for your turbocharged 6A10.

    Anyway, here is a thread that might help you out a bit in powering up your 6A10.
    http://www.zerotohundred.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=207281
     
  3. vr2turbo

    vr2turbo Moderator
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    I think the 4G93T will be better for power and maintenance over a V6
     
  4. RENESIS VIII

    RENESIS VIII Senior Member
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    But he wants that unique V6 sound. :biggrin:
     
  5. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi vr! I agree with you. The 4g93t has 2 cylinder less (which results to cheaper labor cost and maintenance overall), originally is turbocharged (wouldn't have big problems running stock settings), has autobox that is reliable, and generally lighter overall (less mechanical energy loss, better to power to weight ratio, and front/rear distribution of weight). Also, it has good power output stock. Stock whp is about 165-170 with 220nm, easily. Great for city driving as the torque is there and long distance driving can save fuel (with turbo, it's possible).

    But the uniqueness of the v6 is what intrigues me. The v6 engine that produces the exhaust note, the balance on higher speeds (wont sound and feel like parts are going to fly), and the price of the halfcut beats most of the NA halfcuts, needless to say when compared to halfcut 4g93t. I believe when i were to spend to sort my plan with the 6a10, the total cost there barely reaches the point to just purchase a 4g93t. And maintenance after, major ones, would be fine i guess. But buying, sorting, and getting the 4g93t ready for transplant (excluding basic mods), would send my car cost of modification beyond the 6a10 transplant + basic mods.

    My direction is to obtain a better power delivery compared to my current ride, but not to beat others. Erm, more like a self directed objective. That being said, i wish to understand further on my mini project before executing it.

    Your advice is appreciated. But, is the v6 6a10 really that bad compared to 4g91 or 4g92 sohc/dohc in auto variant? :adore:
     
  6. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi Renesis!

    Thank you for the compliment! It's a project that I wanted to sort for quite some time already. Didnt had the guts to look into it as I've always been having doubts bout myself. But now, I'm ready to take up some challenge.

    Though, the full exhaust system is tricky here. I'm not very sure/familiar with the firing mechanics, exhaust flow, backpressure needed, and exhaust layout for a v6. Any advice or tips to share? Hahahaha!

    I actually had thought, if the power delivery of the 6a10 is barely above the 4g15, i might want to stroke/swap the blocks/bore to higher displacement. Though, i might need a proper ecu management and a workshop to tune for me. This, would result in better power delivery for sure. But the risk here is engine management, and the gearbox reliability. Then, should the swap of blocks or stroking of bores is not suitable, i might go to the route of soft turbocharging for lower end torque response (need-not to be rocket speed).

    Though, stroking is illegal. I am aware of that. Just wondering, in the event if i do go a little crazy, would it be a possible option that wont cost me a bomb. Hahahaha!

    I've seen that forum post and some others. It seems like everyone is condemning the v6 against it's counterpart of 4g families of the same displacement and the 1.5 segments. Oh well And not much forumers here are using or tuning, rather, have hands-on experience on the v6 engine. More to 6a12 and 6a13, but not 6a10. Only monstaville and boon (both forum names) seemed like have the hands on experience and had driven them for a stretch of time. For that, my query above is not really answered by those discussions. That's why i wanted a discussion on this. Hahahahahha!

    But then, how is the 6a10 performance compared to 4g91 dohc and 4g92 sohc/dohc in the auto variant (bone stock with basic breathing mods)? It seemed like everyone is saying 6a10 is even slower than 1.5 4g15 sohc auto because of the v6 engine weight. Really? :burnout:
     
  7. RENESIS VIII

    RENESIS VIII Senior Member
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    From your writing, you seemed to have quite some knowledge about the workings and mechanisms of an engine. You've been into car modding for quite long?

    I agree with you regarding the sound of V6 engine. Like for example the sound from 350Z with modded exhaust. Inline 4 engines just couldn't replicate such kind of sound regardless of what exhaust system that they use.

    I don't think 6A10 is really a bad engine on its own but the main reason I think most people don't prefer it over 4G9 engines is because it is a V6 at the end of the day. It is a small compact V6 engine (I heard it is one of the world's smallest V6 engine) which definitely gives a lot of difficulties if you or your mechanic wants to work on it during maintenance. Taking apart things are not easy and they require more time and effort to get things done compared to those 4G9, 4G6 or 4G1 engines. Workmanship cost for 6A10 engine is definitely going to be higher than 4G engines.

    Other than that, the extra parts and complexity of a V6 engine is also probably why people tend to stay away from it. Think of it this way, the 6A10 had 2 extra cylinders and 2 cylinder heads compared to 4G engines. The parts are also doubled like for example, 4 cam pulleys, 4 camshafts, 2 cylinder head cover, 2 gasket and 2 times the amount of oil seals. With more parts, the chances of parts breaking down due to wear and tear is also higher than 4G engines. Lets say for example, I have some oil leakage from my cylinder head cover oil seal in my 4G15 engine. What I need to do is, just replace that oil seal and that should be good enough for quite some time. But if I own a 6A10 engine, I found out that oil is leaking from one of the cylinder head cover. Fine, I'll get that oil seal replaced with a new one. But that is not the end of it yet because the other oil seal on the 2nd cylinder head cover is not replaced yet. I could suffer the same problem like the 1st cylinder head and at that time, you need to bring the car for repair again. The time and workmanship cost spent on the 6A10 engine is already 2 times compared to what I spent on my 4G15. You get what I mean?

    Anyway, I'm not discouraging you from getting the 6A10 engine, it is just that I highlight some of these things to you first so that you will know on what to expect after getting this engine. The possibilities of what I mentioned can happen. If you are okay with these things, then you can go ahead with this choice. Speaking of oil leak, if the leakage happen on the cylinder head located on the inner side, it might be hard for you to detect it because of its location. This is probably another reason why people din't like this engine.

    You're welcome. :biggrin:

    I'm not familiar with the firing order of the 6A1 series engine either. Maybe you can ask the exhaust shop to see what kind of extractor/exhaust manifold that is suitable for this engine. They should know what to do with the extractor/exhaust manifold mod. Other than this part, the rest of the exhaust system from the mid-box/catalytic converter onwards is pretty much similar with most other cars.

    If you want to increase the stroke of the engine, you definitely need to rebore the block to accommodate the larger displacement. Whether can the 6A10 1.6 litre block be rebored to the size of 6A12's 2 litre block is the challenge for this task. Not so sure can the block be rebored that much or not because an increment of 400cc is quite a lot and if it is not done correctly, you might damage the engine because the cylinder wall has become much thinner after reboring.

    If you are comparing the performance of 6A10 with 4G91 and 4G92, the two 4G9 engines will probably have the advantage due to lighter weight like you mentioned. If you are comparing it with 4G15, perhaps 4G15 will perform better on low end RPM and during lower speed. SOHC engines tend to have better low end torque as the weight of the valvetrain is lighter than DOHC. The advantage of low end torque is more apparent in this case of 4G15 VS 6A10 because for 4G15, there is only 1 camshaft for the engine to drive while the 6A10 had 4 camshafts in comparison. Definitely it is easier to get the SOHC engine moving and rotating at start compared to a DOHC V6 engine where the engine needs to drive 4 camshafts at one go. The gear ratio for 4G15 gearbox is probably shorter than 6A10's gearbox and that will further give more advantage to 4G15 during lower speed and RPM. But at higher RPM, DOHC engine will show its advantage over SOHC.
     
  8. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
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    Bro.. stroking is not illegal. Going 2.0 on a Proton Wira is. 6A10 still within limit but you'll need to find a good mechanic who knows how to handle the mounting because unlike the 4G93, it's not plug and play for the 6A10 engine. V6 means more parts to maintain imho.
     
  9. vr2turbo

    vr2turbo Moderator
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    More plugs, hard to remove also, Timing belt more costly and so on......lol:driver:
     
  10. vr2turbo

    vr2turbo Moderator
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    To me, V6 is best for the smoothness of the engine. For sound I rather go boxer.......lol:rofl:
     
  11. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi Renesis!

    I have to agree with you. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, an inline4 is definitely easier to sort compared to a v6 engine. Also, in comparison between my 4g15 to 6a10, we're changing about single camshaft to quad camshaft, single belt to two belts, 12 valves to 24, four to six pistons/sparkplugs, all-in-all, a higher number of items to look after and to maintain. Thus, maintenance cost overall are increased quite significantly, about 1.75 times more compared a regular 4g dohc series. Also, not to mention that mechanics that are used to 6a10 are harder to source compared to sourcing for 4g series mechanic (spare/new parts too).

    Now, lighter valvetrain (4g15 sohc has one camshaft) definitely has advantage when moving from an idling state as the pedal/acceleration response is quicker, making it a lighter and friendlier city driving option. But this only applies to speeds moving below 60kmh. Anything above that, is a burden for the valvetrain, I believe. With the 3 speed auto box, we're barely moving beyond 100kmh at the final gear (third) rotating at 3.5k rpm. And when we cruise above that, the 12 valve and single rotating camshaft would need to work really hard to push it any harder, resulting to poor fc and power delivery, both pick up and top speed. Thus, for a casual daily driven car between cities, 4g15 is acceptable, but not the best when it comes to highway cruising (speed above 90kmh) with or without weights (lack of power delivery and fc).

    The heavier valvetrain (6a10 dohc has 4 camshaft) definitely has disadvantage when moving from an idling state as the pedal/acceleration response is slower, making it a heavier and unfriendly city driving option. Though, when speeds climb above 60kmh, the quad camshafts and 24 valves would definitely produce better results when it comes to acceleration. Now, 6a10 has 4 speed auto box, which probably has a shorter gear ratio compared to 4g15 (i might be wrong), would allow me to have a better acceleration if the engine weight was the same. But because of the engine weight difference, 4g15 might have a slight advantage for acceleration and fc between idling to 60kmh (very slight). But anything above 60kmh, quite likely 6a10 would move forward further. Now, top speed and higher cruising speed would definitely has lesser strain on parts as the torture is shared across more parts (long term maintenance is definitely costlier), and for that, when i constantly drive between 120-160, it would be bearable and sustainable for the engine life and parts.

    To cure or improve the drivability of the 6a10 durig 0-60kmh response and acceleration, i had plans to stroke or soft-turbocharging it. Though, the tough question here might be, would the soft-turbo (probably twin td04 at low psi, or single td04 at low psi) be a solution? Otherwise, would stroking or swapping bigger cc blocks help? Either way, auto box is the main concern as too much is not good either to sustain the gbox.

    I guess, all-in-all, i should be prepared that the power delivery would not be super great, but it would definitely have better output than my current internals. On the bright side, the exhaust note is there to sing you tunes from time to time
     
  12. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi Izso!

    I would consent with you that stroking is somewhat not illegal. For a wira, 2.0 is definitely illegal. All-in-all, if by proper stroking, 1.8 is as far as i can go with the 6a10. At least, 1.8 has 200cc more anyway and surely is able to provide instant power output increment throughout the torque band.

    Oh! The mounting are not p&p? I thought they are the same. Something new for me to be prepared about. Would it be an illegal mounting placement? Cause if it yes, i cant endorse it, I believe.

    V6 definitely has more parts to maintain. For the uniqueness of the note, oh well

    Anyhow, when it comes to stroking to higher displacement, what are the key issues or areas that i need to manage for prolonging lifespan of my engine/box? This, I've always been curious with.
     
  13. niklys

    niklys New Member

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    Hi VR!

    Oh yes, boxer sound magnificent! V8s and above as well. They just have this screaming note that is orgasmic (cant find a proper word to replace this ) to our car guy ears.

    Though, I've been told that the engine and the air-cond compressor is so smooth and quiet, sometimes you cant notice it. Really? Also, when it comes to accelerating or driving, it's also creamy smooth and quiet. I wonder, how refined this can be? Any way or idea that you can share or articulate? I just cant figure out.
     
  14. vr2turbo

    vr2turbo Moderator
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    You have to try it to feel the smoothness, some mention silky smooth.......lol:biggrin:
     
  15. sanekit

    sanekit Well-Known Member

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    eh? mounting points is same iinm. only the bracket on the left hand side, and gearbox side is different.

    It's good to know that at least u have some knowledge on the engine you want to swap. you really did your research. :driver:

    And yeah, proper stroking the 6A10 you can get at least 1800cc minimum and 1970cc max. Oh, you need to swap your autobox with the 6A12 autobox for better torque handling. The 6A10 autobox can only handle certain amount of torque. As for methods to prolong your engine lifespan, don't be stingy. Use good engine oil, change oil according to interval time, use only mitsu sp3 for the ATF. :biggrin::biggrin:
     
  16. lsm1991

    lsm1991 Senior Member
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    ohh... i had a friend with this engine plonked into a satria, then he got rid of it, and bought a perdana which apparently was another regret of his before he absolved all regrets by plonking in the 4g63t into that. let me warn you, more bad than good will come from this....

    the maintanance of this thing is that of a perdana but you only get a tiny bit of power from it. fortunately alot of the other bits are the same as the perdana parts, Unfortunately, it means you pay perdana prices for a 1.6L. Some parts (cant remember which) were an absolute hell to cari and when you do, it costs an even bigger bomb.

    sparkplugs are an absolute @#$%* to deal with (i have 1st hand exp here) and basically you have alot more parts to maintain (as you obviously already know)... and lets be honest, its not as easy to reliably squeeze power out of. these na 6aXX engines were not built to deal with alot of power like to rev and their power curve is very linear. Heck even the even the 6a12mivec which was built to do the job feels very linear, compared to the 'nivec' models basically has more top end power.

    now if the idea is to get a bang for buck decent performance engine, this really isnt the way to go.
    you stroke it, 6 pistons need to be replaced, you need to bore 6 holes. The last issue which may or may not put you off is the general available info/expertise with these engines. You can easily find ppl to squeeze power out of any of those 4 potters, but with this v6, forget off the shelf parts too, its either does not exist or will likely be obscenely expensive. You will have to retort to lots of custom work. If you turbocharge it, given its compression, i dont think you can gain much. will You're better off getting a 4g91 and boosting that. The dollar per horsepower gained ratio would be in favor of the 4 potters.
     
    #16 lsm1991, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  17. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
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    Hmm.. doing the stroke properly is good enough. Nothing much will need changing except perhaps the fuel mapping. Perhaps you could extract out a little more power from the larger capacity. There's nothing to worry about with stroking and oversizing pistons. Heck - if yours is a VDO Wira, the ecu is smart enough to adapt and compensate for the larger CC. Nothing to worry about at all. The gb will be able to handle the minor gain without issues.

    And it's as what sanekit said - use good oils, don't extend oil changes, and your car will be fine. Pretty much applies for normal cars too.

    Yala.. different means different la.. it's still not PNP
     
  18. RENESIS VIII

    RENESIS VIII Senior Member
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    Looks like you realize what you are signing up for if you are going for 6A10 engine. Good to hear that.

    4G15 is actually an engine that is quite capable but in your case of example, the 4G15's potential is much throttled by its 3 speed auto box. So, the benefits of low end torque from this SOHC valvetrain is not so apparent due to the power sapping nature of this automatic gearbox. Having 3 gear ratio to play with makes it worse since these ratio are longer than the 5 speed manual. So, in a comparison between 4G15 AT with 6A10 AT, 6A10 definitely had more advantage over here I guess? But if it is a 4G15 MT in comparison, perhaps it might be able to keep up with 6A10 engine even if the 6A10 is using a manual gearbox.

    I don't think it is worth it to go for soft turbocharging. By doing so, you are adding more complexity to your cramp engine bay. You put in more parts on an engine that is difficult to handle the final result might give you even more headache. Besides, if you are turbocharging it, I guess you will take parts from 6A12TT like those intercooler piping? If you are, then you might just attract unwanted attention during roadblock. JPJ officers will think that you are using 6A12TT instead of a turbocharged 6A10 because of your engine's appearance. Difficult for you to prove that it is a 6A10 engine since the block number is not easily seen. I think you are better off trying to find a way to stroke up the engine instead of going for turbocharging. Don't forget that if you are turbocharging it, you are adding even more weight to the front of your car which is already heavy and that is going to be bad for your handling.

    V6 owner has spoken. :adore:

    The thing is, I felt like TS is not trying to get a bang for buck kind of performance. More like he is attracted by the charm of a V6 engine. :biggrin:
     
  19. sweelt

    sweelt Well-Known Member

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    Budget wise, agree 4g93t is way more.
    Go ahead with your project, if u seeking the nice v6 tone, and some extra power than 4g15.
    U are prepare, and maintenance for the engine is a bit complicated then straight 4.
    We give suggestion, so do more research. Don't compare with others engine once project complete n you'll be fine.
     
  20. RENESIS VIII

    RENESIS VIII Senior Member
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    Going for 6A10 is like dare to be different path. I like your comment about this. Sometimes, doing things your own unique way can really make your build stand out compared to the rest as most of them are similar.
     

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