Top overhaul guide

Discussion in 'Car Talk' started by enjin, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. enjin

    enjin New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hi, as per title, plan to do top overhaul on my wira 4g13 MMC injection. would like to enquire about parts n process involve during top overhaul. My car got leaking for a while now, so instead of changing the gasket only, I prefer to make it one time job. Not interested in full overhaul/engine rebuiding as the cost might as well buying new engine/car dp.

    Parts:

    1) Head gasket (cld be normal or metal one)
    2) Valve seal
    3) Valve cover gasket
    4) Valve guide, valve seat (may change if u plan to keep it longer)
    5) Intake manifold gasket
    6) Head bolts (old one tend to stretch)
    7) Other cheap2 oil seal and gasket (oil sump gasket, crankshaft oil seal) too many seal, even foreman not know the name, lol. but important to know where it is located.

    Open up a little bit further, u can also replace ur piston ring or conrod bearing as these things also has its wear and tear. You are going to full overhaul already.

    Process

    1) Head skimming (good time to skim it, as long as within manufacturers limit)
    2) valve grinding (to keep good sealing between valve surface and port hole for good compression)
    3) Wash parts with petrol (esp parts when u open rocker arm cover
    4) Cleaning/ decarbonise parts (piston head, intake manifold etc) most cheap overhaul w/shop will skip (3) and (4).
    5) You can also opt for Port and Polish while you at it. (better result if u plan to do engine mods like hi-cam, etc)


    This is also a good time to change other parts to minimise work, like water pipe, water bypass hose, belting, water pump etc if they need to change. Also a good time to flush ur rusted radiator. check if there is any leakage too.

    As for the parts part, what else that could help in engine performance and high wear and tear rate? piston, valve itself? Thing is i plan to buy the necessary performance part myself, any part and brand to recommend?

    Not all workshop capable of doing above process, so they ll sub it to machinist, hence higher cost. Those process might need professional touch, at least for me. If u happen to do or have recommendation of such workshop, u can list it here also.

    Think any engine will share more or less of above information. So please share your experience!
     
    #1 enjin, Jan 29, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  2. DanzEterna

    DanzEterna Moderator
    Moderator Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,923
    Likes Received:
    3,371
    where is our sifu Izso....

    ---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

    my suggestion u buy the full overhaul kit instead of top overhaul kit, not much difference.
    for example perdana top overhaul kit rm150, full overhaul kit rm250 both made in japan.
    but u have to fork out some extra $$$ for workmanship depending on other stuffs u need to change while in the process.
    your engine will lasts at least another 10 years.
     
  3. punk

    punk Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2011
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    76
    Every tools for the job complete dy?

    have u ever change timing belt before?

    This is my target man, full proper overhaul.
     
  4. synail

    synail Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    259
    Likes Received:
    19
    done mine 2 weeks ago
    3++km so far no leaks

    add some for u

    water pipe
    water bypass hose
    new beltings
    water pump
    spark plugs
    radiator coolant

    others i forgot
    head distort a bit but i didnt skim it

    hey guys care to add some?
     
  5. ^pomen_GTR^

    ^pomen_GTR^ Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2010
    Messages:
    7,477
    Likes Received:
    1,682

    as in the quote
     
  6. dking91

    dking91 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    11
    newbies thought....
    just some add on
    1. new valve
    2. timing belt

    make sure the grind valve process done correctly... check for leak by pouring fuel to the in/ex after finish grinding....
    skim head can be optional if u wan to increase ur compression..
     
  7. pwhyze

    pwhyze Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    356
    Are new valves really necessary during an overhaul?
     
  8. dking91

    dking91 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2013
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    11
    for me i prefer new valve becoz old one will go deeper in valve seat thus less compression... correct me if im wrong :)
     
  9. SkYwAlKeR

    SkYwAlKeR Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    10,149
    Likes Received:
    300
    new valves are not necessary... sometimes, oem valves are better than spare part shop replacement valves... just clean them up nicely and regrind the valve seat... if u have the time, double check the sealing after installing the valve springs... previously i use multiple grade grinding paste to grind valve... finishing off with autosol... lolz...

    take ur time cleaning up everything... plan ur upgrades along the way... such as teflon thermal gasket, new intake/exhaust studs, polished intake manifold and cylinder head... port match all of them... new gasket and oil seal everywhere...

    knowing what to do and doing it urself is totally different... make sure u have some sifuu standby as backup just incase u screw up (for first timer).... and of coz, ur tools must be appropriate and complete...
     
  10. Hadi17

    Hadi17 5 Year | Silver

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    10
    i recently bought a wira for my college use for RM8k .. not to expect much from that because its cheap but still in running condition .. there's this sound coming out from the engine and i really could not say what is the problem :bawling: .. it makes this (loceng clutch) type of sound when the car starts to move or once it changes the gear . ita a automatic tranny for the info. anyone had this problem before ? please help me .. thanks sifu's :)
     
  11. DanzEterna

    DanzEterna Moderator
    Moderator Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2007
    Messages:
    15,923
    Likes Received:
    3,371
    could it be the gearbox bearings?
     
  12. enjin

    enjin New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    good info here. may i know which part/bearing/sealant added for full overhaul kit? since i plan to get a thorough care for my engine, the cost for full overhaul itself will cause like 5k above for pro job iinm. will consider it once i know the condition of my block. thanks:adore:

    ---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 09:21 AM ----------

    thanks for the generous replies, guys! all info will be updated on the first post!:adore:

    interesting thought here. thats what im going to focus at, more like cleaning the engine head into every detail possible. i am satisfied with the current performance and fc, think by cleaning it perfectly wld give a better performance, smoothness and durability, while maintaining fc consumption.

    had a look on how grinding and porting are done, very interesting. suprise how u guys can do it:adore: of course i have no plan on do it on my own, im afraid if i do it suddenly become 2-stroke after reassamble, lol. but it cld be a good guide for those who plan to diy.

    may i know what is teflon thermal gasket for? is it head gasket or intake manifold one? thank you
     
  13. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
    Helmet Clan Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    6,117
    This is my personal take on your car overhaul. It's an old car, are you planning on keeping it longer? If yes, change out the seats and guide. There's bound to be a lot of wear and tear on a 15 year old car. You'll need a machine shop to do this for you.

    Oil sump gasket, crankshaft oil seal, camshaft oil seal, clutch and the seal that's at the clutch side (forgot what that's called) and a few smaller rubber seals for the oil pump. water pump, erm... eh wait.. this is just a top overhaul right? If just top most of these things no need to touch unless you want to. But might as well since your timing belt and all will be out. Change all the belts as well.

    Btw, don't forget - get new head bolts. The main bolts that lock down your head to the block. Old ones would be stretched out already so change them out.

    Bro, once you do that you're going all the way full overhaul already. Are you sure you're ready to do all that? King bearings and all should go as well if you're taking out the piston rings.

    I'm anal about these things. There's a reason why the head bolts stretch and compress the headgasket the way it does. It cannot afford any deformation and 99% of the time mechanics will not wait until the head is 100% completely cooled before removing the head. And even if you do remove it when it's completely cooled, the head might be deformed even just a little bit because of the way the head bolts were locked down. The slightest deformation and you're gonna experience hell on earth if it leaks.

    Just skim the damn thing. Manufacturers designed the head to allow up to 6 to 10 skims (I think) so just skim it down 1mm or more. Just don't reach the max limit (there's an indicator on the head itself). Better to be completely flat (the head) and once skimmed, never place it down on the skimmed surface. If you do, make sure it's padded with a nice cloth or something. Skimmed surface is flat, you ding it a bit and you'll need to re-skim.

    But that's just me being anal. And I skimmed my old head to the max for the compression. Powaaahhhhhh. Cuz I had a spare head anyway.

    Skim it la. It's out already lor.

    Yes.. valve grinding is an absolute necessity. But are you gonna oversize? If not then just a simple grind will do. If you're looking to do something extra and wanna do it DIY like me :

    Prepping Valves for Performance

    :biggrin:

    Remember - when washing steel parts, after drying always cover it in engine oil or WD40 to prevent rust. Just cover it in clean engine oil and that'll save you a helluva headache later from rusted parts.

    Port and Polish will help provided it's done right. A shitty job will screw up your cars power and performance. Again, if you're wanting to DIY this, have a look at this. I did this for my old head :

    Performance and Economy — Mike Holler and Bob O’Neill discuss Chrysler turbochargers

    :biggrin:

    Dude, top overhaul or full overhaul ah? If full, then you're looking at block resleeving if it's in bad condition (or you wanna oversize) and oversized pistons with piston rings, then of course there's the bearing guides. Shit loads of things la. I just hope you find a mechanic who knows what he's doing and is honest about it. DIY!

    Hoses are a good idea to change. If you've never changed them before it's not expensive to swap out. Have the radiator flushed and cleaned too but don't touch the fins. Check for leaks after flushing. Water pump and oil pump ideally should change if it's never been touched before in 15 years. It's a lot of work to remove so since almost everything is out, might as well do it now.

    Metal gaskets are good and bad. Good is it can take punishment from a high compression engine for example. But bad is when it breaks, it just lets go and instant oil + water mix. You have to be completely dedicated to swapping it out when it reaches 80k ~ 100k km and don't take chances with a metal gasket.

    Workshops that I can think of that'll be willing to do that much mods would be GT Auto and probably Under5. Not entirely sure. But you better prepare a lot of money if you do decide to go modding with them. What you're asking to do isn't going to be cheap (modding).

    I did it DIY with 2 other friends 6 months total. The cost of everything was enough to buy a GSR, completely refurbish the GSR and install into my car but I didn't want to do an engine swap and I had no faith in mechanics after 2 screw ups from mechanics (one was Proton themselves!)

    Good luck. :biggrin:
     
    #13 Izso, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
  14. DebraPrange

    DebraPrange New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    4
    i support .. and why not as good comes along with the bad so be ready to accept it as well
     
  15. Hadi17

    Hadi17 5 Year | Silver

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    10
    but its an auto tranny ? also will have gearbox bearing problem meyh ?:confused:
     
  16. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
    Helmet Clan Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    6,117
    Yes happens. I've had a leak before there.
     
  17. enjin

    enjin New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Wow, experience speaks here. Thanks for the informative reply.:biggrin: u are a sifu indeed:adore:
    So to sum things up here, ur advice are: 1) Change the valve seat and guide, 2) new head bolts.

    this thing got me a lil bit confused. some shop also offer to change piston ring on top of top overhaul, aside from full overhaul. So i guess full o/haul will include more detail process on the block (like resleeving u mention?) not sure..


    You got ur point here. Definitely go for skimming since we not going to remove head that often. the way u describe it, i think urs might be way better than a new engine..haha. very delicate indeed. good job!


    I think for me i ll remain the standard size. about the DIY thing, it does make a point. making a greater surface area for better vapourisation. nice! but will it eventually promote carbon deposit?


    Mine im not going to change the ring unless got issues. just for general opinion. good to hear from you dude:biggrin:

    yeah, honesty, which money cant distinguish. thanks for the encouragement dude! tho i think DIY overhaul is too harsh for me. heck i never even once change eo myself..haha


    now that i know it, i rather use oem one, lol. so u were saying if u plan to skim ur head thinner (higher compression), then metal gasket will be useful.

    Saw their web, all nice car wan. apart from my budget, im afraid my car become invisible there.

    ok, it all about my budget. lol. seems like a good n proper place for modding. any other workshop u ve been to?

    there are 2 types of auto freaks imo. one is those obsessed with newer model (testdriving every single model that just came out), and two, modding freaks. in ur case, u r among the leader of the modding hood. am i going too deep here?:biggrin:

    Great to hear from sifus around here. appreciate ur detailed explanation. :adore: will update 1st post:burnout:
     
  18. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
    Helmet Clan Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2004
    Messages:
    14,145
    Likes Received:
    6,117
    I'm no sifu man. I'm just vocal about what I've done and do. My level of skill is nothing compared to the likes of johnsonlam and some other quiet hidden sifus who just read and never post stuff here.

    Well, if the workshop is going to change your piston rings without removing the bottom half of your engine then I'd like to know how they do it.

    Just fyi, resleeving isn't a 100% must do. It depends on the condition of your block. Lets say it's badly scratched or worn, then it's probably a good idea to resleeve to go with your new piston rings. But if it's not too badly worn and don't plan on oversizing your pistons or whatever, then no point resleeving la. Just scared you might have compression loss. All depends on what you find out after the pistons come out.

    :biggrin: I'd like to think so too. I did a whole lot more than what I've told you.


    Carbon deposits? I don't seem to have that problem. Btw, without the tools, you can't do the power lynz and all that. It's a delicate job and those valves aren't unbreakable. So don't try it without the proper tools.


    Er.. no la. Stock engine can use metal gaskets too. Just a matter of choice. Metal gaskets can take more punishment than normal gaskets. Your car is stock, so no point going metal since it's more expensive to buy anyway.

    Actually, I forgot what his nickname here is, Mitch Chong the GRA fella has a workshop in Kepong. He's quite reliable too. Don't let him brainwash you into turning your car into a GRA car though, the fella is GRA gila :biggrin:

    Leader? Are you kidding me? Look at the other modators, yeehau has an Altis that isn't an Altis, PocketRocket has a pocket rocket CRZ, Tom has a scary V12 BMW, FSD @ fstrader used to have an automatic Wira which he claimed was stock but he'd bring his 'stock' wira and it would always win him GRA competitions, then there's some quieter hidden moderators like joeker and Jin who used to have super heavily modified turbo wiras. Let's not forget Blackhowling and his orange Garfield 2JZ

    Dude, I'm obsessed with modding yes - but I'm no leader! I'm more of a DIY guy really.
     
    #18 Izso, Feb 7, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  19. vr2turbo

    vr2turbo 5 Year | Silver
    Helmet Clan Moderator

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    28,393
    Likes Received:
    8,039
    People like you and Johnson are just good, if you can share your knowledge with us. Whether a lot or limited, sharing is caring. Keep to yourself and others won't learn.....:adore:
     
  20. enjin

    enjin New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2014
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gotta respect that. you shared lots of useful info here does make a difference. appreciate that:driver:


    Haha, of course need to take out the block. Maybe they asssume that full overhaul including replacing bearing and all that. imo theres a blurred line between top, full and engine rebuild term.


    agreed on this. thats why u better be there when they strip ur engine down, so u get to know what and what not to do.


    haha. then i shld go there with my parents lol. kepong kinda far, but those from kepong can take note!


    wow, sounds like wira quite popular among moderators here:driver: newbie here:wavey: wld like to hear ur personal experience on this. guess i went too deep on leader thing, haha. but we need more people like u. you earn the knowledge in a hard (and expensive) way, yet u guys willing to share with us.

    technical question here, 1) is it possible to clean the top of piston head without removing the block?

    2) my engine block is covered by almost 1 cm thick of sludge, even after an engine wash. maybe due to eo leaking for a while now. any product to deal with it? plan to buy it and ask the mech to clean it. really hurt my eyes seeing it.

    3) regarding the compression, what will happen if we increase it? any change in fc? more heat produced?
     
    #20 enjin, Feb 10, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014

Share This Page