1. Bump posts missing? We are spring cleaning the Forums so these posts are being removed to optimize the database further. Don't be concerned, you can continue to do whatever you do. Will be developing the site further as well through the coming weeks so do watch out for those! You can close this notice now
    Dismiss Notice

My 2L B-Series N/A Project

Discussion in 'Honda' started by chris2000, Feb 5, 2007.

  1. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    I'm just in the process of starting my 2L B-Series build project and want to share with fellow ZTH members and friends to gain as much feedback and tips as possible to improve my build. I'm still awaiting quite a few parts and pending confirmation of some parts that i may need or use. So as I build, I will try to post as much info and pictures as well. :regular_smile: As mentioned in earlier post, I'm now trying to share as much infos as possible unlike the old days where people want to keep everything secret. hehe.. Unless i'm told not to reveal certain things from people who are helping me in this build, all should be said and shown as much as possible.


    Just a list of items i have on hand.
    Sleeved B-Series Block
    B18C Knife-Edge Crank
    CP Forged Piston 85mm 11.5:1 (might be changing this for higher comp)
    J's Racing Throttle Body 70mm taper to 64mm
    J's Racing Fiber Intake system with Pipercross Viper Carbon CAI Filter
    J's Racing Baffled Oil Sump
    DC Sport 4-1 JDM Race extractor with 2.5" collector (might need bigger Tri-y extractor if it restrict too much flow)
    RC Engineering 310cc injectors
    Hondata S300J in JDM P72 ECU
    Hondata Intake Gasket
    PLX Wideband
    ATS SuperSingle Clutch


    List of items pending:-

    Stock head awaiting a mild port job
    Intake Manifold awaiting a clean up and mild port too
    Forged I-Beam rods still waiting to buy?
    Valvetrain will wait till i know my exact built and compression and rev range i want?

    Thats all i can think now. :Not_Impressed:

    This build i'm not trying to target crazy HP or REVS.. Just strong useable power and as flat torque as possible and hopefully with good reliability.

    This build project will probably be taking 3-6 months or maybe even more depends on the budget and availability of parts.
    Chris
     
  2. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24

    Attached Files:

  3. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24

    Attached Files:

  4. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24

    Attached Files:

  5. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,676
    Likes Received:
    170
    Nice.. how much are these for a set nowdays? though personally I think that it's rather small for a 2L setup, since there's not much leeway for more fuelling as revs climb, if you're running more than 8K. It's just an opinion though, but I think whoever tunes your ride will know if it's adequate or not based on the A/F ratio. Even on some tuned 20B setups, I think they exceed the 80% duty cycle already on H22A injectors, which is why constant high revs = boom? (My thinking says that the injectors starts sputtering and A/F ratio goes to hell)

    The following is under realm of 'theory', so check with your engine builder about it. I could be wrong, and I admit it freely, as I'm purveyor of engine theories, with little practical hands on experience on building one, still I've been proven right a few times when I was modding my engine, so I think my knowledge is so-so.

    I think for the rods, I think you can opt for custom *longer* rods on a B20B (I think 1-2mm longer, since you'd be using the R crank which reduces the piston to deck height a bit (piston sides sit lower than the deck) depending on the location of the piston wrist pin, essentially reducing compression, which may or may not be what you want, depending on the pistons you use), It's 'supposedly' more lasting for high RPM setups since they generate less vibrations during high rpm compared to short rod setups even after balancing, due to crank bearing tolerances ( supposedly means based on theorylah!). A short rod setup 'supposedly' has less lower end torque (if other variables stay the same) than a long rod setup.

    Aftermarket crank brace also an is also an 'insurance' for the bottom end, so it's worth it in a built engine. There's three cap (the R has it, which is usually a bolt on fit, aftermarket ones are beefier and supposedly stronger, and a five cap type, which covers the sump gasket area as well and increases sump oil capacity a bit.. however, the five bolt ones usually require some form of machining work to fit..(see sswork's post previously. I think even spoon's one need a bit of machining to clear the crank, since the original setup was for a B16B, but nobody's willing to spring the moolah for that one considering it's super-exhorbitant price.. hehehe.)

    B20B also known to have high crankcase pressure due to the fact that the breather hose to the manifold is omitted, and it's said that for a safer setup, an oil cooler is a good bolt-on to have.

    Eh, just wondering what g/box and ratios you're planning to run, or is that an 'after engine build' decision as well?

    Good luck.. keep posting on the progress.. I think it's a great way keep a log and to actually see the results of spending your hard earned money.
     
    #5 shiroitenshi, Feb 5, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2007
  6. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    True based on the Matsalleh formula.. But i seen B16A race engine tuned on stock CTR 240cc injectors with only 255lph fuel pump tuned to 200bhp with Hondata and it still works though if you check the injector duty cycle its already over 100% duty.

    Another B18C-R with TODA C, again shows max injector duty cycle by 8000rpm but could still tune to a fairly rich A/F of 12.5.

    Very strange my findings but its true.

    310cc injectors was bought by mistake actually. Should have went for 370cc or even 440cc so got more room to play.. Regretted lio :mouth_closed: So will see how when the build is finish and ready to tune..
     
  7. J101

    J101 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2005
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chris,
    The beautiful part about this project is you are using Hondata S300. Im not sure if this is a road car or however you want it to be, it'll be neat if its a "wireless" engine bay with quad throttles. Ha ha. Let me say it again, quad throttles with Hondata :)
     
  8. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,676
    Likes Received:
    170
    Actually it will run, that's for sure.. but for how long is the question.... I checked some spray pattern vids. I forgot where, but it clearly showed that the honda stock 240cc injectors can run 100%, but after a few secs, it started sputtering fuel.

    However, if 104% duty cycle at 8K/9K, where your rev limit is at, I think it'll probably work... just don't maintain it there for long.

    Anyway, can bump fuel pressure to compensate for lack of cc size, but after one stage, it will start to sputter.. I think that's what you're seeing for the B16A race engine, high rail pressures to compensate for injector's size... anyway the B16A engine is quite hardy, amazingly.. I can run quite lean and still not blow the engine... (high rod ratio perhaps? it's at 1.74) In fact, I was at 20K mileage when I finally decided that I had to do something about it... first went in VAFC, and then when someone offered good price for it, I swapped in an ITR regulator. Bad low end, and I get the rich fuel, low end exhaust sputter now and again, but the high end pretty much works out well.

    Still holding off my B20B build.. need more money... hehehe.
     
    #8 shiroitenshi, Feb 5, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2007
  9. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Messages:
    15,329
    Likes Received:
    525
    Hi Dude,
    very nice to see that someone will to shared the info or spec btween the others...me, Salute.

    bout the sleeved block, i think u can looking for AEBS, coz i think those AEBS 1 will be more stronger & last longer....

    bout the intake system, i think u can customize Mugen N1(according to magz, this stuff is not for sale 1) one..., it will be like small turbo in ur car.....:shades_smile:

    just some suggestion....:_:



    pls dun bang me....i'm just a newbies..:cyclops:
     
  10. shiroitenshi

    shiroitenshi Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,676
    Likes Received:
    170
    Oit! this one looks like it's a local job.. where's the block guard? isn't it supposed to be epoxied to the sleeves? Or is it using the 'posting' method (I have heard and seen it on matsalleh setups, but not malaysians..)

    I think it's a local job though.. is it?'

    If it is, it sure looks well done...
     
    #10 shiroitenshi, Feb 5, 2007
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2007
  11. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    I actually did find a different setup which uses the B18C 87.2mm stroke with custom longer rods using custom raised 19mm wristpin instead of stock 21mm and a single piston ring for ultimate low drag and high power with a rod stroke ratio closer to the B16B!! The most ideal setup but cost MEGA dollar and don't know how many mileage before need to strip to change rings. hehe.. Also those single ring piston dome are scary.. :shcokedcamo: wrong tune and say bye bye to the bottom end
     
  12. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    I will be using the B18C 3 CAP type block brace with the ARP Main studs. Should be safe to 9k + rev if wanted too. Hopefully :angel_smile:

    The engine will and defenitely use an oil cooler system due to need to lower high engine oil heat due to the iron sleeves and less water jackets.

    G/Box will be stock B-Series, but ratio should be different depending on the final usage of this engine.

    Thanks :shades_smile:
     
  13. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    haha... Wish i could afford them and try to mess around with the tuning via TPS sensor then the conventional MAP sensor! Apparantly there a no full bolt on type for the B-Series. TWM still need some mod to fit and tuning them was a Bi**h! TODA got to use toyota sensors so will definetely need some wiring and re-calibration setup. I have seen people who can tune them but normally all at WOT only:angry: Can't do a perfect tune on idle, part throttle, gradually throttle. All got power only at WOT and no transient power.

    Omni Power USA did say that they want to come out with the 4-Throtle specifically for B-Head and guarantee to use stock OEM HONDA sensors to be a complete bolt-on and with adjustable velocity stack.. But heard price will be more than RM10k!!!
     
  14. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    I won't be doing another sleeve job anytime soon cause its been done already. The AEBS does look stronger but the are close deck which i don't want as heat build will be high. I would went for a closed deck like AEBS if i were running high turbo boost.

    Over thousand post still newbie meh.. hehe..


    It's been sleeved overseas with iron sleeves. After the 85mm bore u see in picture, the thicknesss of sleeves are still 6mm with the center between bores at about 5mm. It is an open deck sleeves like OEM just only much thicker and without aluminium surroundings. Can't fit the std block guard as the water jacket is too small and i don't think it need one now.

    The block brace has also been machine fitted by them for this block and bore and hone there too. But might still need a final polish locally here to get the proper piston to wall clearance.
     
  15. avantasia

    avantasia Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,716
    Likes Received:
    0
    hih hih nice project car!!!!

    btw this is for drag or mme?
     
  16. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    haha.. Definetely not MME! Class B only 1.8L, and we always mod to race regulation, thats why our car is always still slower than other teams.. haha.. Our MME engine are fairly stock but mostly new and strengthen parts for ultimate engine reliability only.

    And I don't think my current 2L project will even last 6hrs non-stop race without braking anything else in the car! haha... This setup will probably be changed with a much higher compression piston (which is a no no for MME cause high compression kills the motor in endurance race like MME) and a very high lift cam like 12.5mm to 12.8mm intake lift (this again will stress the valve train too much in an endurance race).

    Build and items used not confirm yet but will give info as the build/project goes.. :_:
     
  17. V8_nutter

    V8_nutter Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    516
    Likes Received:
    2
    Chris what is the size,,,"primary" piping for DC Sports ? and which flywheel you plan to use ?
     
  18. avantasia

    avantasia Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,716
    Likes Received:
    0
    wats the price for DC Sports header?

    i guess the flywheel comes with super single!!
     
  19. chris2000

    chris2000 Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    24
    I really don't know what is the exact size of the primary.. hehe.. actually no measure them before and its currently in my DC2 at the workshop. Will measure and let you know. All i know was it was actually a copy of the Mugen 4-1 for 99spec B18C engine or slightly bigger and it ends up with a 2.5" collector.

    It worked great on my MME B18C engine but i suspect it will restrict exhaust flow of a 2L. Big tube tri-y options anyone?? Cheap cheap got ar.. hehe..

    I bought it new more than 2 years ago. It is the steel type with ceramic coating. I think i paid RM2k+ for it. With that price you can now buy the J's Racing 4-2-1 which is very similar size to Toda 4-2-1 for only RM2400! Somemore it is stainless steel for better life and bling bling effect. hehe..

    Yup.. Flywheel is very light and comes with the ATS SuperSingle. Try to get a picture for you guys today.
     
  20. avantasia

    avantasia Senior Member
    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    4,716
    Likes Received:
    0
    which 1 is better? 4-2-1 or 4-1? so far as i know if using 4-1 header fuel consumption like hell....

    ATS SuperSingle must be 4k++
     

Share This Page