Modifications That Dont Work

Discussion in 'Car Modification' started by jinkl, Apr 12, 2005.

  1. arturo

    arturo nooB
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    U-grooved/mulitple electrode spark plugs...making larger sparks which in turn creates better combustion. myth or fact?

    we pay rm40 for a set of 4 normal NGK and rm160+ for a set of denso iridiums. marketing strategy? is the 4X price justified?
     
  2. rakyat

    rakyat Senior Member
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    I got my denso iridiums FOC from my agent (oso owns sparepart shop) & it is already 60k km still running strong. Previously my spitfire / borsch super 4 would last only 40k to 50k km.

    IMO iridium plugs are longer lasting then normal plugs but r they worth paying RM160+? If u r using premium plugs then it is worthwhile adding RM10 to RM30 bucks for iridiums. But if using conventional plugs then the price difference is not worth it. When my iridiums kong, probably go back to conventional plug since there is not much difference in performance

    But these days accessory shop recommend racing plugs (Brisk, HKS) which are RM250 to RM3++. Some boy ricer swear there is noticable increase in torque and hp.
     
  3. tofu_manic

    tofu_manic Senior Member
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    one school of thought says that the multiple electrode part of the sparkies will 'disrupt' the flame kernel expansion, hence why some people actually bother to index their single-electrode sparkies so the open gap will face the center of the cylinder, supposedly better for combustion

    denso iridiums didnt work for me :P didnt last long enough, the other time the insulator broke...which could be due to other things also lah hehehe

    i say stick to fresh new shiny cheap @$$ coppers :P
     
  4. xtremeleo

    xtremeleo Senior Member
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    from what ive experienced, the price isnt justified at all.. i modified a set of plugs and they performed better, and lasts longer then a set of iridium. from my findings, its better to let the flame kernel to be able to expand rather then compressing them in a tight spot between the two electrodes, so a grooved electrode sounds like a good idea. dats one of the reason y i prefer ngk compared to denso (although i seriously think they have the same parent company..). i dont think multiple electrode is needed though, as electricity will only choose a path with the least resistance to flow through, i dont think the plugs will fire through all the electrodes at the same, taking dat principle into account. multiple electrodes design allow the flame kernel to be able to expand freely though, maybe dats what they shud be marketing on.. i dunno..

    iam still trying to duplicate the infamous firestorm plugs, it emits sumthing like a plasma blast, iam yet to prove of its effectiveness..
     
  5. tofu_manic

    tofu_manic Senior Member
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    what bout pulstar plugs? havent seen anyone use it here..ang mohs have used it though, with varying results but mostly positive

    cant believe i havent heard about the firestorms; reading up on it now...crazy stuff!
     
    #185 tofu_manic, Oct 8, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
  6. rakyat

    rakyat Senior Member
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    What about 'twin spark' in Alfa and those MSD devices that claims to enhance the spark intensity by boosting the voltage and frequency of sparks?

    If what we read about combustion can only happen once per cycle then those devices are just cosmetics?
     
  7. xtremeleo

    xtremeleo Senior Member
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    firestorm may have been only a light show, lol. but wud be a good experiment imo, sumtimes tangan gatal.. u know how it is, whether its gonna be a waste or not, i have to see the results myself.

    pulstar plugs have built-in capacitors jer, i prefer to employ MSD and use normal plugs, a cheaper option with the same result, imo.. ive seen an MSD equipped 4g93, one of the plug was taken out to check if its working, it was held up and examined when the engine was cranked suddenly and it sparked to the engine head, a meter away. with dat alone, i dont see the need of any fancy plugs, i was hooked immediately, lol

    ---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- 6 hour anti-bump limit - Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

    twin spark in an alfa only covers a lot of surface for burning, they have bigger bore, so they increase the efficiency of combustion by introducing another spark at a distance from each other. its like what the rotaries are having, two rotors, 4 plugs. same theory, two strategically placed flame kernels burns faster den i single unit, sumthing like dat ler..
     
  8. tofu_manic

    tofu_manic Senior Member
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    yea...didnt notice any difference when i was running iridiums or coppers with the msd 6al

    rakyat, only experienced the 6al (gives sparks every X degree of crank turn, instead of just once per cycle), not others, but others should work all the same, really complements air/fuel-hungry dcoes haha
     
  9. Zeroed

    Zeroed Senior Member
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    Actually the new generation Alfa Romeo twin spark is a waste spark system... meaning the second spark ignites only to burn off unburnt fuel, performance wise there's almost no difference haha.

    I wish it made a difference, because I drive one.


    The direction of the spark makes a difference, so be careful in modifying or choosing spark plugs guys. The idea is by exposing the spark directly to the ignition chamber, the fuel ignites stronger and faster, giving you an additional 2-4hp. A normal spark plug has its spark inside the electrodes, meaning the spark is exposed to the cylinder walls at a wide angle, and not the piston.

    Modified (gapped) spark plugs, or those quad electrode spark plugs where the spark is directly exposed to the direction of the piston however can accelerate piston wear. Modified gapped spark plugs especially have a spark curve that is strongly exposed to one side of the piston, it has been known that engines with these modified plugs fitted that are driven hard often suffer from immature wear on one side of the piston (literally a dent/hole on that side of the piston).

    Im not sure about MSD or other stuff which greatly increases the spark's strength, but I suspect it may have a role in shortenning your engine lifespan as well. I'm sure the manufacturers calculated a specific strength for their ignition coils and spark plugs for a reason. If I had a highly tuned/high boost turbo engine, I'd stay away from crazy sparking systems just to be on the safe side. For normal cars then I think it might be negligible.

    Keep in mind that during the compression stroke, the air:fuel mixture is a highly compressed explosive substance stored in a small amount of space. When the spark ignites, it is best for the mixture to spread evenly instead of a strong concentrated blast in one spot, although it gives you a little more power.
     
    #189 Zeroed, Oct 8, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
  10. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    HKS Twin Power tested in Stock B168, with crome tuned, gets 3whp & 0.7tq....
     
  11. zane_al

    zane_al Senior Member
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    Hey guys...just my 2 cents....modification that don,t work...

    1. BSE ... thing that are supposed to make your sparks bigger...don't see any difference only makes your rev meter go wankers.
    Cost rm1500.
    2. Undercarriage racing struts... supposed to make your car stiffer... well maybe... but with all the huge bumps here and there.... sangkut la unless you're 4 x 4.
    Cost rm 500.
    3. Bridgestone Potenza.... badd...in the wett...
    Cost rm350 each.
     
  12. JINEIL2EN

    JINEIL2EN Senior Member
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    the 1st & the 2nd 1, not work for ur car cos ur car not really need 1.. i guess... hahahahaa...:biggrin:
    the 3rd 1, i guess u using re001... ofcos la... useless tire...:proud:
     
  13. zane_al

    zane_al Senior Member
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    I'm selling my BSE, used only for 3 days, wiring can get from internet.
    May be it'll work for your car.
    900 buck and goodluck.
    As for Bridgestone, yep it,s re001 but for the price you,d expect better performance.
    Now I'm on Toyo.:itsme::itsme:
     
  14. rakyat

    rakyat Senior Member
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    Sori but what is BSE?
     
  15. arturo

    arturo nooB
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    about the spark plugs with directed spark being produced facing the piston....finding it a little hard to grasp the concept. a spark any where within the chamber should baloon out in a globe no matter where the spark is facing rite?a gas explosion moves almost in a soundwave pattern so any blockage it faces it will wrap around it albeit a little slower or is the explosion so extreme that the wave of expanding gasses comes in different waves due to placement of spark?

    ya ya...what is BSE?
     
  16. dabok max7

    dabok max7 5 Year | Silver

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    First of all sorry to bring this thing up heheheheh...

    When U talk about standard parts U must remind ur self that each part have been develop by the person (usually engineers) for certain things such as constrain sir.. one of the constrain is safety future, the second one is durability and the third one is price etc... I dont said that standard one will generate unstable voltage but for sure with less resistant cable will give better stability voltage with least time duration right?

    Secondly I don't argue with U whether I'm the only one who go to the uni bro... seriously with hundred even thousand of uni out there maybe many people in here are from that uni sir who knows.... please don't defer from my question I don't want to insult anybody. I'm only to seek new knowledge in this automotive world and try to expand my knowledge through others people knowledge because we share the same enthusiasm "Automotive"...
    About the test method... real world scenario application.. thats the thing... u try to do experiment without proper knowledge of experiment u will get no different set of data event worst, wrong data.....when u do the experiment, the set up of the equipment is the most important thing that will differentiate between true data u can get or false data u can get... the more equipment ur used the more error it will make... for example chassis dyno yes it give exact data from the car output but it not sensitive enough to show the different each time mod being done to the engine.. unless the different is huge... for example when u said 7hp gone when u test nology plug it actually at wheel h.p but in the engine h.p its actually much bigger than 7h.p... about wheel dyno can u explain how much sensitive the dyno can detect? 1000rpm? 500rpm, 250rpm? or 5rpm? and what are the speed of measurement they used 50hz? 60hz? 75hz? (but still don't ask me more about this because most of my test rig being set by my friend from electronic course student heheheheh)... lastly how much error the dyno machine have? thats why when u talk about dyno, the only thing that sensitive enough to detect the different is engine dyno or u ur self make ur own test rig with very expensive component just to detect the different.. to add another question what actually the things that u monitors? only h.p? or u also monitor the flame propagation duration? did U change the timing of the spark when u change the cable? (because each cable must contribute to the different flame propagation duration if they have different resistant)..

    the most funny thing is that u make an assumption for the experiment that cannot be used in real life... what type of assumption u make when u want to applied it in real life cannot be used? for me assumption for experiment is actually from the real life application the error comes only from the experiment rig it self.. and lab experiment is divided into many degree of purposes.. first for lab used and purposes is to seek new and naval materials, finding etc.. second is to simulate real life condition so new develop product can be tested, third is to meet real life condition in control environment so u can see the effect of it. and many more (to many reason where even i don't know what is the purpose) the only things that can be used as reference is the equation they make from the experiment.. why? because to used the equation for the real life application must met with the set of condition and constrain from the equation used for example temperature, humidity, etc... if theses condition are met then the equation valid to be used in real life application...based on ur conclusion well I don't want to argue with ur conclusion I just want to see that is it, the right conclusion u make based on the fact that ur monitors thats all...

    Lastly I only seek explanation to add my knowledge sorry if I disturb everybody in here for my selfishness.. and if u feel that u don't want to explained to me because not everybody understand it then ok.. (U can PM me what? heheheheeh:biggrin: and really appreciate it if u do:adore:)

    about spark plug and other mod regarding ignition.. well it also relate with flame propagation thinging...i only want to share my 2cent (that what everybody said right) for 5000rpm engine rev equals to 83.33rev/sec in 1 rev equals to 0.012 sec.. example u have 15 degree angle of flame propagation (assumption only) means the flame propagation duration or time should be 0.0005 sec... thats only for 5000rpm.. and if u have set the spark timing for the current mod let say 10 degree before TDC and with current setup the timing seem compatible and the best option for ur optimum performance.. but after that u change to the performance part either spark plug or cable plug or etc... I believe with that mod the flame propagation duration already change right? so assume the time duration change from 0.0005 sec to 0.0004 sec it means that ur flame duration also change from 15 degree angle to 12 degree of angle... if U said it without changing the timing spark the performance of the engine will not change is up to U... for me the degree of end of combustion is the thing that contribute to release some of h.p that kept from the engine.. (it not increase but release) thats why engineer in engine management will always change the spark timing... when ever the engine rev change.. if the engine rev much slower the best spark timing become closed to TDC and if the engine in high rev the spark timing become advance.. it just to cope with flame propagation duration before it complete burn...(flame propagation duration value usually gets from set of theoretical equation or experiment that they make them self)

    sorry for long explanation and blablabla... hope u all can understand what the things that I seek and sooooo sorry for my selfishness...
     
  17. Zeroed

    Zeroed Senior Member
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    Videos seen on engine combustion would suggest combustion pattern is not an even globe at that kind of flow speeds though.

    The thing is, for gapped spark plugs the spark is off-center. The spark actually curves down and outwards, away from the electrodes, towards one corner of the piston. The fact that it produces an additional 3-4hp must mean that combustion is affected. Not sure about the 4 point spark plugs, since those are still at the center it may have no impact.

    However I cant prove anything lah, its just a research article I came across by an ex-grassroot racing technician in the US, where all of them do many of these small improvements to squeeze a bit more power. He also showed pictures of his damaged pistons. How true I cant say.

    Just food for thought, but if its on a stock N/A engine with normal compression I dont think any of these will be of significance. If youre running an engine like Type-Rs or highly boosted engines though I'd think twice about playing with sparks...
     
  18. arturo

    arturo nooB
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    dabok....when u say flame propagation, u were saying from flame on to flame off? u were not calculating the piston up to piston start down timing? pls go on more on this. a little too technical for me but everything is learnable wan heheheh maybe u can test this out? suggest to make it an official test for yr class n then u can publish the results here. i'm very interested to know the results cos i think for u it should be ez to get some force meters to measure the amount of force different plugs n cables can exert given a set amout of a/f mixture rite? u were saying bout advancing the timing cos an aftermarket should provide a faster flame on flame off timing rite? y not break it down to the basics n see if an aftermarket plug n cable(test it out in a matrix) does increase explosive force and the % on increase...guys like me can only imagine of doing these sort of tests cos we lack the equipment to do it...

    also i think what leo is saying is that there is no definite way of ascertaining if those exp cables and plugs are really performing proportionaly better to those el-cheapo types and the costs differences dont give it justification enough to buy it. so might as well use those cheap types n change often.

    Zeroed....u still have the video n site links? just thinking out loud eh...i thought that a fixed a/f mixture in a fixed chamber size should always burn at the same temperature since the amount of oxidants n fuel remains the same rite? even if the spark is bigger, it should still remain the same temperature? when u said damage to the piston, is it because of irregular explosion pattern where it began to exert force on 1 part of the piston before the other side ignites n begins to exert force? this is starting to get very very technical wooooor
     
    #198 arturo, Oct 8, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2010
  19. Zeroed

    Zeroed Senior Member
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    Wah, deep engineering talk. Read also headache. :biggrin:
     
  20. zane_al

    zane_al Senior Member
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    Brisk Spark Energiser sold by Power Sport in PJS. Made in the USA. You can google it. It's an electronic box to boost your spark.
    They claimed increased in hp and torque but when I dynotest, no increase in hp only slight slight increase in torque.
    But maybe as harry said not meant for my car.
    Apparently many sold,so it may work on other cars.
     

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