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Car modifications - the dummies guide! Final chapter

Discussion in 'News and Features' started by Izso, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
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    [​IMG]

    For the last part of 'The Dummies Guide', I'm going to talk about probably the most expensive of the lot - forced induction (FI). Generally speaking there are two types of FI :

    1. Supercharging
    2. Turbo charging

    (And in some really adventurous cases, super-turbo-charging. Not for the feint hearted or the weak wallet)

    The reason why I say this is the most expensive modification is this : I don't believe in transplanting engines. The car is no longer the same if you plonk in a 4G63 in a Satria chassis, are you a Satria or are you an Evo? Frankensteining your car is plenty fun, but let's be honest - no one wants to spend time at Puspakom letting them thrash your car with tests that'll make you cry only to later tell you that you can't register your car with JPJ because your brakes were crap or your lights is the wrong colour. Let's not forget the long wait and runner fees!

    Anyway, so in my opinion bolt-on is the way to go but it's not exactly the cheapest nor the most efficient. A turbo charged 4G15 essentially is still a 4G15 and the amount of money spent doing the BOT probably would've allowed me to by a Mivec halfcut. But again - where's the fun in that? Pushing the limitations of your engine is half the fun, doing it without wasting time in Puspakom is even better.

    First things first, your engine in its stock form (or NA modded form) is not going to cut it for FI. You'll need to upgrade the fueling, the brains (ECU), the pistons and the exhaust. Then there's the suspension and braking upgrades you'll need to do in order to stop safely (with the upgraded power). This will add up to be a lotta money! We're talking almost 5-figures here, as in minimally RM10,000 for a properly setup system (brand new, not 2nd hand).

    ....

    ....

    So... are you with me still? Yes? Good. Read on!


    [​IMG]

    FI is a great way to get the extra kick in the balls power from your engine. If a displacement upgrade (stroke and bore) isn't enough, FI it and you'll get a good power up. Stock atmospheric pressure is roughly 14psi, FI usually gives you 5psi to 9psi gains, so that's roughly a good 50% increase! Minus away the inefficiencies, friction, heat, etc and you'll still have 40% at the very least. Money well spent if done properly!

    To prepare for FI, you need to invest in good low compression pistons. This will help reduce the chances of engine knocking at high boost levels. If you're one of those lucky engine owners that have OEM FI versions of the same engine, you can opt to buy your pistons from those engines at a considerably lower cost (eg- K3VE and K3VET, transferrable parts). Otherwise you're probably looking at custom forged pistons.

    Technically speaking you can use flat or high compression pistons but your tuner had better know what he's doing otherwise you're going to have a world of hurt, suffering and plenty of pain! Monetary pain!


    [​IMG]

    Next up, invest in a proper intercooler, turbo timer and ECU. The intercooler is essentially there to cool down the air you're going to pump into your intake and in turbo setups, this is important since the air pumped by a ultra hot turbo will be equally hot. Hot air into the intake is not good for power (not rich in oxygen hence very poor combustion). Superchargers on the other hand may not need an intercooler depending on how much boost you're looking at. 6psi of boost won't need an intercooler, 8 or 9psi will.


    [​IMG]

    Why the need to get a good turbo timer you ask? Ask anyone if they'd trust a non-verified, not QC-ed made-in-China turbo timer. Sure most products these days are made in China but the difference is the QC, a respectable brand would have checked the quality of all its products before putting them out for sale even though it's made in China. Also, in the case of a turbo engine, the components get ridiculously hot when in operation so when you power down your engine, the timer will continuously run the radiator fan to allow for the components to cool down gradually (and faster compared to leaving it by itself) to prevent premature wear and tear, and warpage of parts. I don't believe supercharged cars need a timer but having one isn't going to do any harm.


    [​IMG]

    As for the brains, you definitely need to upgrade or replace your ECU. The stock fuel map isn't going to cut it anymore, not with that much air being compressed into the cylinders. The recommendation is to use a standalone ECU for more flexibility in setting up your air/fuel ratio, fuel map customization, extra injectors (if you intend on adding one), ignition timing, etc. Piggyback ECUs can do some of these things except they won't allow modification of the fuel maps. What Piggybacks do is just trick the stock ECU into thinking it needs to pump in more fuel or otherwise. Choosing either one really depends on the skills of your tuner, which brings me to my last point.

    Choose a tuner wisely. FI isn't something you can DIY unless you've got the know-how, the tools, and the balls! One wrong turn and you could fry a piston, wreck the engine block, or worse - destroy the whole engine! There are plenty of good tuners out there, get referrals from friends with proven machines and do your homework on the tuners credentials. There's plenty of feedback in ZTH itself on different tuners so choose wisely.


    To turbocharge or supercharge?

    [​IMG]

    Superchargers essentially are related to better torque across the range. They are easier to maintain and generally are less problematic compared to turbos. However superchargers leech off the engines power to work (usually via the crank) and that results in lower power output compared to turbos... very much lower. But gotta love that addictive whining noise it makes whenever you accelerate! Like a bat from hell, a properly supercharged car will make such a racket it'll scare dogs and little children everytime you step on the go-faster-pedal.

    I personally like superchargers because of the low end torque it gives.


    [​IMG]
    Picture courtesy of Garrett

    Turbochargers are known to be lean mean ball bangers because of the massive amounts of power it can give you. Turbos are actually used in a lot of "energy efficient" cars because of the way it produces energy from waste.


    [​IMG]
    Picture courtesy of Garrett

    Let me explain - turbos are like little fans. You introduce the fan to some wind and it turns. Superchargers on the other hand are mechanical blowers which "blow air" based on how fast your engine is going. Turbos make use of exhaust gases to turn the 'fan' to blow air into your intake. Meaning the more exhaust gases there is, the more the turbo blows. That also means turbos are way more efficient compared to superchargers since it doesn't rely on anything mechanical to work.

    The only downside to turbos is generally what is experienced by all fans, fans spool up to eventually reach maximum velocity. The time the turbo takes to spool up is known as turbo lag meaning your power is not immediate like superchargers. But when it spools, it blows big time! That's when you start to feel the G-forces forcing you back into your seat.

    I had a friend who had a really heavy duty setup and he once challenged me to try to grab at tissue from the tissue box on the dashboard while he launched his car from standstill. My hand almost reached the tissue when the turbo suddenly spooled and that was as far as my hand could go because of the unbelievable G-forces his car was generating.

    Nice.


    [​IMG]

    Turbos have one extra thing that needs to be done - you need to route an oil channel from your oil sump to the turbo for cooling and some cases lubricating purposes.

    Other things like manifold, blow off valve and/or wastegates are a must for turbo applications. They don't really apply to superchargers though. Superchargers are generally placed before the intake manifold whereas turbos have to be placed where the exhaust gases are.


    [​IMG]

    A BOV (blow off valve) is used to release boost pressure from the intake whenever the throttle body is closed. Whenever the turbo spools up, it generates enourmous amounts of pressure in the intake and if the throttle body is closed, this pressure reverts back to the turbo who causes the turbo fins to stall or slow down. This is known as compressor surge and it will kill your expensive turbo, hence the need for the BOV. The bird chirping sound you hear in some TC cars is the BOV.

    Very addictive sound this one.


    [​IMG]

    The wastegate works similar to the BOV except the usage is different. Wastegates control the amount of boost you can have so you don't get any spikes of boost that'll destroy the engine. Similar concept to the BOV but not the same usage. The fluttering sound you hear in some TC cars is the wastegate complaining! Ever heard the Prodrive P2 car? As Jeremy Clarkson put it : "Yup.. it's a squirrel mincer!"

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ONVZ8QFTnb4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    And with that, I hope you have fun modding your car be it forced induction or NA, both ways are fantastic fun and are guaranteed to give you a big smile on your face.... until you see your bill, then you'll probably start crying.

    :biggrin:

    Whether you turbocharge or supercharge, expect lots of gains from these mods, especially more so after you've done some of the earlier simpler mods.
     

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    #1 Izso, Oct 19, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2011
  2. Kevin Lee

    Kevin Lee 5 Year | Silver

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    i thought there is no finale to this! LOL, well it was a rewarding read. could certainly benefit it. The only problem now is that, with so much power and torque, you have to look into the chassis integrity of the car. That's what I encountered learning to build a forced induced vehicle. Maybe instead of finale, you have to introduce that part, so we don't see lying dead corpses on the street. Have you seen this gory photo where the Evo powered Satria got shredded in the pieces!? Damn
     
  3. DanzEterna

    DanzEterna Moderator
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    izso..how bout dump pipes/screamer pipes...does it function the same as wastegates?
     
  4. Kevin Lee

    Kevin Lee 5 Year | Silver

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  5. netzsch

    netzsch 5 Year | Silver

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    can u tell us more about supercharger?
     
  6. mines998

    mines998 5 Year | Silver

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    Yes I do agree with Izso the amount spend on turbo may up to 5figure but if we talking about NA mod is even damage yr wallet when you want to increase to same amount of horsepower as turbo. Eg. If want both 2000cc NA and turbo mod to 300bhp which 1 cost more money?
     
  7. intervener

    intervener Senior Member
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    Hi! Izso,

    I would be grateful if you could add another topic i.e. four throtles (4T) modification.

    I hope you give me tips before I decide whether to modify my 4G92 Mivec to 4T with 1.8 DOHC block. Pls advise the relevant things that need to be look at in order to ensure that after modification I need not take any PANADOL.

    Thank you.
     
  8. mines998

    mines998 5 Year | Silver

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    Sorry forget to add on this if both NA and Turbo have same horsepower and CC. No doubt the NA sure tapau Turbo GAO GAO....and there is yr money go to.
     
  9. Kevin Lee

    Kevin Lee 5 Year | Silver

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    Do some on itb, I appreciate u could help me with carb cleaning and reassembling, appreciated!
     
  10. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
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    Yeah well, this was performance mods. Talking about chassis rigidity is another topic!


    My understanding of dump valves is that they are the same as BOV.


    Hmm.. There isn't much to talk about. There are generally 3 types of superchargers, the screw type, centrifugal and one other I forget the name. Each type of supercharger produces different sort of power and that's pretty much it. Considering how bloody expensive these are it's hard to do R&D without experience and I don't have much experience except on AMR300 superchargers which I believe is a screw type supercharger.


    Mines, it's hard to say. Depending on the quality of the parts and brands, the NA mods can easily cost as much as the FI stuff. Having said that though, if you're crazy enough FI can be just as expensive. I know a Turbo car that has about 20k investment. I've also heard of ultra high revving NA screamers that spend almost just as much. Hard to say which is more exp la. But to get NA to go 300bhp is not an easy task. FI on the other hand is easier.

    As for NA vs Turbo on the same platform - say a Honda EG - NA vs Turbo the NA will win in a short drag race say 100m. Compare that with the quarter mile I'm sure the Turbo will eat NA for breakfast. But that also might be wrong depending on how the turbo is setup. Last time at Batu 3 there was a Evo that had permanant turbo starting from 1.5k rpm all the way to 6k rpm. That's turbo is crazy on the low ends!

    So in the end it's not so much which is better, it's just a matter of which more suites your driving style and which makes you happy.


    4T.. ITB is a bit of a foreign thing to me. My understanding of 4T is it's basically the same as having one giant TB. You'll suffer big time on the lows but once you hit mid to high it'll be screaming murder and you'll be flying. I'm not sure how 4T will work with the Mivec system and definitely don't know enough about 4T to give proper advice! Hopefully someone here can chip in?
     
  11. Kevin Lee

    Kevin Lee 5 Year | Silver

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    btw, its called roots type supercharger izso, as commonly found in the mercedes-benz kompressor type engine
     
  12. amirmambo

    amirmambo Senior Member
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    Great info and nice write up buddy...After all the info gathered ive come to the conclusion that my pockets are not that deep and in my position currently up to part 2 is how far i can go :biggrin:..But the journey goes on and thank you for your contribution :idea:
     
  13. D7zul

    D7zul Senior Member
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    awesomeness..

    now my target has changed.. i want a supercharged turbo for my car..

    muahahahaha :evil:
     
  14. ddv_nk12

    ddv_nk12 5 Year | Silver

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    nice write up..
     
  15. R11

    R11 5 Year | Silver

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    there are 2 different things but serve the same purpose. they can be used both on internal (actuator) and external wastegate. normal o2 housing will combine the gas exhaust n waste gas from wastegate in same channel. for high boost application this can cause air turbulance. So by separating the exhaust into 2 channel (dump/screamer) pipe from wastegate, this turbulance can be eliminate.
     
  16. Izso

    Izso Boooooossst
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    Go for it dude. Super turbo! :biggrin:



    And on a sidenote, finally got the damn movie working
     
  17. Kevin Lee

    Kevin Lee 5 Year | Silver

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    isnt that the same thing as the nissan march superturbo hahaha
     
  18. arrowhead

    arrowhead Senior Member
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    after reading/watching, i want the prodrive p2!

    ITS A SQUIRREL MINCER!
     
  19. mona-vie

    mona-vie 5 Year | Silver

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    Nice article. However, some corrections needed for supercharger part. Only roots and twin-screw chargers will give you low end torque w/o any lag. If you are using a centrifugal supercharger, you will still get the lag like turbo.
     
  20. alwjmonster

    alwjmonster Senior Member
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    if i don boost often a turbo car.. would it cost the same as an NA to maintenance? mind tell me what the differences in maintenance between a turbo and NA?
     

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