B16b/B18c R cam which 1 better?

[crower75]

Hattech got his own brand of cams now under the style and name of "Kerang Bulu Cams"

 

[J101]

to answer this cams comparison and why they are like that, its good to read the cams spec provided in the box. but for itr and ctr cams i dont think got cams spec in the box. never see before also lar. the cam specs are important. the static compression ratio means nothing (as far as detonation is concerned) without them. the engine actually doesnt start building compression until the intake valve closes. just like a plastic bag with full water in it.

all engines that are built correctly will have a effective compression ratio of about 8 - 8.5:1. it doesnt matter if its a honda lar, a bmw lar, or a ferrari lar, they will all be in that range.

as you press the rpm that peak torque is produced so you have to raise the static compression ratio or you won't be able to make any power.

this is because when you have a higher revving engine you will have a cam with more duration (like the ctr) and the intake valve will close later which lowers the effective compression ratio. to compensate for this you raise the static compression ratio.

static compression, effective compression, camshaft overlap separation angle...all these honda engineers think..we dont need to think so hard my friendsssss....

ha ha ha ha

Yeah.. it does make sense, however, there is also concern of how these high compression affect burn rates, as a high compression engine with retarded timings also doesn't produce much power. It's not as straightforward as bumping up compression, IMO. Perhaps for mild compression mods like 10.5-11, but not something that's 12+ to 13

So I agree with you on that point on high compression creating higher peak pressures at combustions, which creates power, but ignition timing also plays a part there as well.

Everyone seems to agree on the point that high rpm need high compression, bigger duration and lift, but no one seems to know exactly how much or a close estimate.

 

[harpoon]

yeah....too late oledi.....now hattech is grinding his own cam....no aftermarket cam can satisfy his lust for power anymore......

mie lust for power... udeng lust for what?? heheheh

 

[harpoon]

to answer this cams comparison and why they are like that, its good to read the cams spec provided in the box. but for itr and ctr cams i dont think got cams spec in the box. never see before also lar. the cam specs are important. the static compression ratio means nothing (as far as detonation is concerned) without them. the engine actually doesnt start building compression until the intake valve closes. just like a plastic bag with full water in it.

all engines that are built correctly will have a effective compression ratio of about 8 - 8.5:1. it doesnt matter if its a honda lar, a bmw lar, or a ferrari lar, they will all be in that range.

as you press the rpm that peak torque is produced so you have to raise the static compression ratio or you won't be able to make any power.

this is because when you have a higher revving engine you will have a cam with more duration (like the ctr) and the intake valve will close later which lowers the effective compression ratio. to compensate for this you raise the static compression ratio.

static compression, effective compression, camshaft overlap separation angle...all these honda engineers think..we dont need to think so hard my friendsssss....

ha ha ha ha

hihi, we want to know only and perhaps try to create our own sweet setting that could produce the most efficient power to effort ratio.... so that's why we discuss a lot here, and also argue around... hehehe

btw, it's nice to know that honda enthusiast don't only tok kok, at least we got some ideas about what is happening in the engine, instead of only presssing the throttle and hope for the power to come endlessly...

vtec is a great invention although honda is not the first to introduce this variable cam setting. the i-vtec got variable cam and also cam phasing. well the latest advance-vtec got cam phasing and also variable stepless cam setting... more advance tau.... hehe

 

[harpoon]

Hattech got his own brand of cams now under the style and name of "Kerang Bulu Cams"

macam pernah kudengar itu brand.... tapi dimana ya... ekekekeke 'kerang bulu' as in what aaaaaa

 

[J101]

the last 1 year has been fruitfull i would say in zth/honda section. a lot of improvement in technical talks and ideas. they should appoint some new modertors for this section to do more stickies on common repeating questions. it helps actually for newbies and veterans.

in the mean time, keep it up!

hihi, we want to know only and perhaps try to create our own sweet setting that could produce the most efficient power to effort ratio.... so that's why we discuss a lot here, and also argue around... hehehe

btw, it's nice to know that honda enthusiast don't only tok kok, at least we got some ideas about what is happening in the engine, instead of only presssing the throttle and hope for the power to come endlessly...

vtec is a great invention although honda is not the first to introduce this variable cam setting. the i-vtec got variable cam and also cam phasing. well the latest advance-vtec got cam phasing and also variable stepless cam setting... more advance tau.... hehe

 

[udengfahlawi]

mie lust for power... udeng lust for what?? heheheh

naahhhh....i'll let u guys journey the quest for ultimate power....i'll just watch from the grandstand seat......:X-:

 

[BtLeJuiCe]

I have found some specs for the cams in other forum. I don't know if you all have seen it before, but here goes (just to share share with all of you)..

STOCK GSR : b17a and b18c1 (Chilled Cast Core)

INTAKE lift - 10.6 mm,duration - 230 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 9.4mm, duration - 227@1mm


1. ITR/CTR (Chilled Cast Cores)

- STOCK 1997-1999 ITR ($500-580/price, ITR intake cam $250-290)

INTAKE lift - 11.5 mm, duration 240 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.5mm, duration 235 @1mm


- STOCK CTR and 2000-2001 ITR (CTR intake cam $300-350)

INTAKE lift - 11.5 mm, duration 243 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.5mm, duration 235 @1mm



AFTERMARKET CAMS (LISTED IN ALPHABETICAL ORDER)


2. Blox (no @1mm specs available)

( MSRP $750 US/price for Tuner Series not Competition Series, Chill Cast Cores )

http://www.bloxracing.com

- Type A , Tuner Series($450-535 US / price)

INTAKE lift - 11.7 mm, duration 247 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 10.7mm, duration 239 @0.05 in.

- Type B, Tuner Series ($450-540 US /price)

INTAKE lift - 12.4 mm, duration 266 @0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 12.0 mm, duration 266 @0.05 in.

- Type C, Competition Series ( $ 450 - 550 US/price)

INT 60 (240) 6.5 76 (304) 12.0 63 (252) 9.0 0.17
EXH 63 (252) 8.7 76 (304) 11.5 60 (240) 6.2 0.19

Primary, Vtec, and secondary lobes measured at .050”

- Type HSL, Competition Series ($510-570 US /price)

INTAKE lift - 12.6 mm, duration 255 @0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 12.5 mm, duration 256 @0.05 in.


no available specs for Tuner Series Type HSL or Turbo, Competition Series Type B , 10124 Race, or Turbo yet.


3. Buddy Club

- Spec 3 Plus ($549 US / price)

INTAKE lift - 11.2 mm, duration 250 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.5mm, duration 245 @1mm

- Spec 4 ($600 US /price)

INTAKE lift - 12.3 mm, duration 269 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.8 mm, duration 274 @1mm


4. Cat from Europe ($485 US / price)

These 2501606 billet VTEC road racing cams come from the Euporean import scene and Cat are cam makers for some of the Honda British Touring Car Championship teams. They require a VTEC/fuel controller like the Apex VAFC for tuning the idle and have an aggressive ramp and more aggressive nonVTEC lobes, despite the relatively mild specs on the VTEC lobe. Thanks goes to Steve at Johnston Research & Performance for the info.

JRP - Canada & USA Supplier of Aftermarket Performance Parts

INTAKE lift - 11.1 mm, duration 242 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.32mm, duration 240 @1mm



5. Crane Standard Tappet & Race Only Roller Follower Cams

The specs listed on the Crane Cams website are at 0.05 in. valve lift. Thanks to Dave Maxwell at Crane for forwarding the duration @1mm valve lift specs for the Stage 1 cams.

http://www.cranecams.com/import/avteccams.htm

- Stage 1 (part no. 2530010 - $773.33/price)

INTAKE lift- 11.6 mm, duration 243 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.8mm, duration 237 @ 1mm

- Stage 2 (part no. 2530012)

INTAKE lift- 11.99 mm, duration 248 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 11.6 mm, duration 242 @0.05 in.

- Stage 3 (part no. 2530016)

INTAKE lift- 12.39 mm, duration 254 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 11.99 mm, duration 248 @ 0.05 in.

- Crane/Ferrea Roller Cams (part no. 2530514 $629/price but must also purchase Crane/Ferrea Roller Followers Set price - unknown. See comments below about using roller cams and standard rockers or followers)

http://www.ferrea.com/Import_Cars_/import_cars_.html

Crane/Ferrea Roller Followers Should Not Be Used With Standard Follower Cams (Here's Why):

Quote:
Larry Widmer at Endyn
All cams designed to work with Honda rocker arms utilize almost the full length of the rocker pad. This causes the effective rocker arm ratio to vary as the cam acts across the span of the pad. If you hold a Honda rocker arm so you can look at it from the side (looking through the shaft axis), you'll notice that there's an "arc" or radius to the rocker pad's configuration. This radius is quite large, so imagine the diameter of the circle it would be part of, were it extended. I haven't measured it, but the circle would be quite large ...something on the order of 2.5" or so.

In order to have the same valve action (as with the Honda rockers) from a Honda "type" camshaft, the radius of the roller in the rocker arm would have to be that same (large) diameter. Since there's no room for a roller that's that large, not to mention that the mass would be "extreme", any roller rocker arm that has a roller that's smaller can not provide the same valve action. This means that anytime you use the roller rocker on a cam ground for Honda rockers, you won't achieve as much area under the valve lift curve and the opening / closing rates will also be slowed considerably. Bottom line is that you will not make as much power with these roller rockers, as you would with the Honda rockers.
​

6. Crower VTEC Cams (Chilled Cast Cores)

Crower Cams & Equipment

Here are the cam durations @ 1mm valve lift which are not on the Crower website. Thanks to Brian Crower for providing these.According to Brian the reason why he did not provide the duration @ 1mm:

"The Toda advertised specs are at .0143", so that's why we adopted that number as our advertised number." All cams $642/price.

- 63402's have the same lift but lopier idle and bigger intake duration than the 63402A :

INTAKE lift - 11.83 mm, duration 237 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.81 mm, duration 228 @1mm

- 63403

INTAKE lift - 11.98 mm, duration 246 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.83 mm, duration 238 @1mm

- 63412 N/A Race Core Cams

INTAKE lift - 11.84 mm,duration - (estimated) 260 @1 mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.81 mm, duration - (estimated) 252 @1 mm

- 63413 N/A Race Core Cams

INTAKE lift - 11.99 mm,duration - (estimated) 269 @1 mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.84 mm, duration - (estimated) 258 @1 mm

- 63411T Turbo Race Core Cams

INTAKE lift - 11.81 mm,duration - (estimated) 242 @1 mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.30 mm, duration - (estimated) 238 @1 mm



7. Dan Paramore

DPR Import & Sport Compact High Performance Camshafts

Dan Paramore did not get back to me to provide the duration @1mm lift specs when I had requested them. The intake ABDC closing spec is 52 degrees.

307 Cam (Race Only, $649/price)

INTAKE lift - 12.07 mm, duration 248 @0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 12.07 mm, duration 248 @0.05 in.


8. Jun

Here is Jun's website:

JUN AUTO WEB SITE

Here are their max. lift and duration 1mm valve lift specs for the VTEC lobes :

- Type 1

INTAKE lift - 10.9 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.0 mm, duration 268 @ 1mm

- Type 2

INTAKE lift - 12.0 mm, duration 267 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.9 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm

- Type 3 ($890/price)

INTAKE lift - 12.0 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm (Advertised 304)
EXHAUST lift - 11.5 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm (Advertised 304)

- Type 4($1200+/price)

INTAKE lift - 12.5 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm (Advertised 304)
EXHAUST lift - 12.5 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm (Advertised 304)

Jun Type 3's have the reputation of eating valves if you milled the head, advanced cam gear timing more than 3 degrees, use oversized stainless valves, or use non-Jun or non-Toda valvesprings.

9. Piper

Here is Piper's website:

intro

- BP285

INTAKE lift - 11.6 mm, duration 256 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.2 mm, duration 256 @ 1mm

10. Rocket Motorsports (formerly Hondasaver, formerly EF-1)

($750/price or $990 with RM valvesprings as a kit). These cam lobes come Parkerized coated.

Rocket Motorsports

M20 and M21 specs (11.5-11.6 lift 274 advertised duration) not listed since we don't have their @1mm duration specs but are much less aggressive than M22's. M22 (street N/A)

INTAKE lift - 12.1 mm, duration 244 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 244 @ 1mm

M23 (no longer available)

INTAKE lift - 12.1 mm, duration 252 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 252 @ 1mm

M24 plain (no longer available)

INTAKE lift - 12.1 mm, duration 258 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 258 @ 1mm

M24E

INTAKE lift - 12.7 mm, duration 263 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.7 mm, duration 263 @ 1mm

M24X

INTAKE lift - 12.7 mm, duration 258 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 265 @ 1mm

M25

INTAKE lift - 12.1 mm, duration 270 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.1 mm, duration 270 @ 1mm

M25E

INTAKE lift - 13.25 mm, duration 276 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 13.25 mm, duration 276 @ 1mm

MXX

Propriety Specs for Contracted Race Teams.

X denotes 1 large nonVTEC lobe resulting in staggering like the stock nonVTEC lobes layout for swirl filling and good emissions/idle quality. XX denotes 2 large nonVTEC lobes unstaggered like the Toda cams' nonVTEC lobes.


11. Skunk2 (Chilled Cast Cores)

skunk2.com now have the specs available. At the time of writing this article, they did not have the specs listed and I had emailed them via [email protected]. Here are the specs provided at Skunk2:

- Stage I (best price $712.50/pr, retail $797/price, CARB Exempt pending)
INTAKE lift- 11.58 mm, duration 252 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 10.8 mm, duration 249 @1mm

- Pro I+ for B series
INTAKE lift- 12.6 mm, duration 264 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.9 mm, duration 264 @ 1mm

- Stage II (Not CARB Exempt, $700-725/pr, retail $849/price)
INTAKE lift- 12.3 mm, duration 266 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.8 mm, duration 262 @ 1mm

- Stage III - (race only, $700-725/pr, retail $849/price)
INTAKE lift- 12.8 mm, duration 270 @ 1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.8 mm, duration 279 @ 1mm

Quote:
These (Stage I) cams pass smog and do not require the use of new valvesprings (though recommended). B18C1 engine makes 17+ more to the tire on average.

Please inform your readers that bigger is not necessarily better. We have only seen 2-4hp increases when using toda B's or jun3's. Neither pass smog. Both require new valve train and in the case of Jun's, there is only a 3-4 degree margin of error before the valves grab each other and destroy the motor.

With the current (Stage I) cam our goal was to make as much power using stock valvetrain, while preserving driveability, reliability, and emission friendliness.
​

12. Spoon ($1045/price)

Specs were kindly provided by Alan Chow at A&J Racing

A&J Racing :: :: MANUFACTURERS :: :: Spoon Sports

INTAKE lift - 11.53 mm, duration 256 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.13 mm, duration 245 @1mm

13. Toda

The advertised duration @ 0.015 in. lift can be found on their website. Thanks to Ali Jahed at AKH Racing for the duration @1mm valve lift specs.:

http://www.todaracing.com/products/h...camshafts.html

- Spec A's ($920/price)

INTAKE lift - 11.6 mm,duration 250 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.2mm, duration 240 @1mm

- Spec B's ($980/price)

INTAKE lift - 12 mm, duration 255 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12mm, duration 245 @1mm

- Spec C's ($1100/price)

INTAKE lift - 12.5 mm, duration 255 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 12.5mm, duration 255 @1mm

- Spec D's ($ Not Available/price, RACE ONLY )

INTAKE lift - 12.9 mm, duration - estimated 265 @1mm (Advertised 305)
EXHAUST lift - 11.9 mm, duration - estimated 275 @1mm (Advertised 315)

In terms of streetable cams, Toda D's have the highest non-roller intake lift in the market.If you rev past 8400 rpm, Toda valvesprings are required.

Quote:
Interesting Comments on Toda B-D Cams:

Valve problems can also be attributed to valve springs failing to control valve motion. I won't build any engine with Toda cams these days because there are no springs we've ever found that will last any length of time with them. When the springs go soft, valvetrain separation occurs and the valves typically end up being "dropped" on the seats, rather than eased to their seats by the closing ramps on the cams, thus pounding out the valves and seats.

The potential damage from weakened valve springs is that great in my opinion...at least with Todas. I also don't think their valve springs are up to the task either. If you (have) to run cams like those, you can't run springs that "fit" in an installed height that's relatively "stock". You MUST run a spring that has at least 1.400" installed height with about 68-70 psi on the seat.

We also have a tool that we've built that allows us to machine the tops of the valve guides down in height to get some much-needed clearance between the bottom of the spring retainer and the top of the valve seal. This tool fits in a collet on the Serdi machine and it not only machines the top of the guide, but it also machines the sides and step so the seal will actually sit lower. On heads running in engines with cams with .485" or higher lift, we always machine the top of the guides to maintain .060" clearance between the retainer and the seal. If you don't, oil is forced (by the retainer) through the guide, contaminating the mixture, and burning oil.

​

- Race-Only "Killer Cams" ($1,800/price includes solenoid oil line plug)

http://www.todaracing.com/products/h...ec_killer.html

INTAKE lift - 12.0 mm, duration 265 @1mm
EXHAUST lift - 11.5 mm, duration 255 @1mm

These race-only cams are light as hell, idles at 2000 rpm, redline at 12,000 rpm, and have a powerband from 5000-12000 rpm. There is NO VTEC LOBE. They have JUST 2 NON-VTEC BIG ASS SIZED LOBES FROM THE START. There is NO STAGGERED LIFT/DURATION for enhanced low rpm swirl filling as seen in the stock nonVTEC primary lobes.

When you look at the 305 degrees "advertised duration" spec for the Toda Killer cam, you should be aware that the duration at 1mm valve lift is only 265 degrees which is identical to the Toda Spec C.

So what's so special about them? Well, according to Ali Jahed at AKH Racing (Toda official distributor in North America) :
Quote:

The duration isn't much more than the Spec C's, but the ramp speed/angle is waaaay different.

As you already know, lift/duration don't tell the whole story when it comes to camshafts and in this case the lower inertia (hollow core) and consistent oil pressure(no vtec solenoid) contribute to consistent performance and improved throttle response which is top priority in a professional race car.
​

Lift and duration specs are not the only numbers to look at. Clearance ramp and flank angles or the steepness of how fast the valves open and close also is important to performance.

14. Zex/Comp Cams

Zex.com - Nitrous Performance or COMP Cams Catalog - Honda Civic 1993 - 1995 Acura Twin Cam Vtec 1992 - 2000

Thanks to Matt Patrick at Zex (Comp Cams). All $566.61/price (the 57300 are by far the best bargain on the market).

- 57100, no valvespring change required:

INTAKE lift - 11.05 mm, duration 230 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 9.90 mm, duration 228 @ 0.05 in.

- 57200, valve spring change is required:

INTAKE lift - 12.45 mm, duration 248 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 11.43 mm, duration 246 @ 0.05 in.

- 57300, for racing only, high compression and major port work needed, for 10,000 rpm engines only:

INTAKE lift - 13.20 mm, duration 260 @ 0.05 in.
EXHAUST lift - 11.94 mm, duration 258 @ 0.05 in.

 

[shiroitenshi]

hihi, we want to know only and perhaps try to create our own sweet setting that could produce the most efficient power to effort ratio.... so that's why we discuss a lot here, and also argue around... hehehe

I think it's more to "most efficient power to each ringgit spent ratio" :P

btw, it's nice to know that honda enthusiast don't only tok kok, at least we got some ideas about what is happening in the engine, instead of only presssing the throttle and hope for the power to come endlessly...

Actually I still hope that pressing the throttle and the power would come endlessly, but then it's no longer

Yume no chikara (power of dreams) but more to chikara wo yumemiru (dreaming of power)

There could be errors there.. I'm still not familiar with the japanese particle 'wo'.

Anyway, nice discussing about the cam stuff harpoon, hope that you will participate more in other tech discussions.. which will come soon, once I finish my work.

J101,
Nice explanation, but still no one knows what range of cams we should look for to get targeted effective/dynamic compression ratio.

Cams are a big expense, so naturally getting it right once would mean I have that much extra for other mods... :P

 

[hattech-v]

chikaro better... keke

 

[harpoon]

I think it's more to "most efficient power to each ringgit spent ratio" :P

that's what i meant la friend.... effort involve time, energy and also expenditure

Actually I still hope that pressing the throttle and the power would come endlessly, but then it's no longer

Yume no chikara (power of dreams) but more to chikara wo yumemiru (dreaming of power)

There could be errors there.. I'm still not familiar with the japanese particle 'wo'.

Anyway, nice discussing about the cam stuff harpoon, hope that you will participate more in other tech discussions.. which will come soon, once I finish my work.

J101,
Nice explanation, but still no one knows what range of cams we should look for to get targeted effective/dynamic compression ratio.

Cams are a big expense, so naturally getting it right once would mean I have that much extra for other mods... :P

i would in areas that i'm familiar with... me no expert, only some guy than wants to learn more.... cheers