Typical timing for street cars at Sepang SIC

K-Kid

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Wow, tuning really involve testing testing testing and more testing. :adore: Respect race driver and engineer to have the patience to do it again and again.

Question; since we are talking about geometry here, will widening the track affect a car's character? Like using a wheel spacer or a reduced offset wheels. Theoretically it is further away from the pivot point.
 

Yee

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Cqloh, i've followed this thread very closely. However, mentioned previously that raising the front ride higher will increase oversteer. Or lowering the front ride will increase understeer. I've did a search on the web and found the same answer as well.

But the thing i don't understand that, say when the front of the car is lowered, and the rear is higher (for eg. front 1 fingers - gab from the tires to fender, and rear 3 fingers) just an example....i know nobody will bring this settings to track.

In that case, if the front is much lower, and the rear is so high, isn't the back of car suppose to throw out during a corner? since we're putting too much weight at the front tires, and the rear is high and will lost grip?
 

K-Kid

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Let me try to answer this... :tongue:

Putting too much weight to the front is exactly why you understeer, because it will overload the tyres easily. The important thing here is the geometry of your suspension system, is it at the working position true to what it is designed for. Which is why lowering the front and raising the rear from flat is two different thing.
Please correct me if i am wrong!
 
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faisal

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It's more of a matter of suspension travel rather than "weight" over the front.

Lowering the front ride height doesn't physically "add more weight" to the front suspension.

I recall T Djan Ley mentioning that having a lower front than rear, thus adding more rake to the car, will result in "push".

This is the result of the front suspension running out of travel, and running on bumpstops. Which in turn puts more load on the front tires, with them giving losing grip.
 
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adian

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Ok ok it's getting confusing for most of the readers here. Once we move into setup.... there are so many variables. So let's try keep it simple.

1. Recall my earlier write up: always start with a flat, level car. And then, you tune from there.
- Dont start too low, or as mentioned by CQ, you'll mess up the basic geometry to begin with. Allow for some room to raise or lower either side if you think necessary.
- From the basic level setting, you can raise the rear/lower the front to dynamically shift some weight to the front. This promotes more understeer/less oversteer. More weight being carried on the front of the car means the tyres have more work to do and thus they will slip earlier than the rear.
- And you do the opposite to reduce understeer/increase oversteer.
- All of this, up to a point. Try to avoid using ride height to counter a basic setting screw up ie wrong toe, wrong springs/damepr settings, etc.
- It's best used in conjunction with setting the ride heights/spring pre-loads with a corner-weighing scale.

2. If you get to a point where you ride on the bump-stops... spring rate goes up tremendously. Bumpstops are like very very hard springs. Try not to utilise bumpstops in your setting up, you want the suspension to be soft and compliant and do it's frickin job!
- The general rule of thumb is, the softer you can set your car, the better!!!
- This is contrary to what you might think, as so many people are seemingly obssessed with going harder and harder with spring rates. The softer the setup, the more the suspension works, to more grip you have.
- Also, to a point lah. Not too soft either. But not too hard. As with everything else, it's a balance!!!

3. Meddling with your track via spacers and offset wheels just change the character, and can increase cornering speeds
- a wider track provides a wider footprint. This is straightforwward to understand, yes? So you can get higher cornering speeds
- again, as with everything, it is relative. Too much offset/too wide the spacer, and your put too much stress on the wheel bearings and they'll wear out faster
- increasing offset/spacers also changes the geometry, again. I forgot what it's called (CQ will probably answer this). It's go to do with theoretical axis and planes etc. Turn in and response will suffer, as wil steering weight. So you'll then need to change other settings to compensate.
- Increasing offset at the front generally leads to slower front-end response. It's less pronounced on a RWD, and more pronounced in a FWD. Again, CQ knows more about this. But I think, if CQ's going to get deep into this stuff... fark, we'll end up as engineers!!!! Really heavy stuff we're talking about here!

/adian
 

cqloh

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LOL...adding the spacer changes your instant centre and your front view swing arm axis...
again wtf??!???

like adian said.. all this is way too deep for street cars..
the main point to remember is that keep the car and hence the mods balanced..
the first rule of building a race car is that it should drive just as comfortably as your road car..
don;t be silly and whack on 20k springs and super short travel shocks... don;t overdo the horse power... don't ignore your tires and alignment.

at the end of the day.. the point is to go out to have fun.. so thats whats important...
the day you need an engineer is when you have enough money and are racing in a competitive field.. if you're doing nether of those... keep hitting the track and learn and laugh about it with your mates

Bump: LOL...adding the spacer changes your instant centre and your front view swing arm axis...
again wtf??!???

like adian said.. all this is way too deep for street cars..
the main point to remember is that keep the car and hence the mods balanced..
the first rule of building a race car is that it should drive just as comfortably as your road car..
don;t be silly and whack on 20k springs and super short travel shocks... don;t overdo the horse power... don't ignore your tires and alignment.

at the end of the day.. the point is to go out to have fun.. so thats whats important...
the day you need an engineer is when you have enough money and are racing in a competitive field.. if you're doing nether of those... keep hitting the track and learn and laugh about it with your mates

Bump: LOL...adding the spacer changes your instant centre and your front view swing arm axis...
again wtf??!???

like adian said.. all this is way too deep for street cars..
the main point to remember is that keep the car and hence the mods balanced..
the first rule of building a race car is that it should drive just as comfortably as your road car..
don;t be silly and whack on 20k springs and super short travel shocks... don;t overdo the horse power... don't ignore your tires and alignment.

at the end of the day.. the point is to go out to have fun.. so thats whats important...
the day you need an engineer is when you have enough money and are racing in a competitive field.. if you're doing nether of those... keep hitting the track and learn and laugh about it with your mates
 

soulV

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how to differentiate between body roll & o/steer, u/steer?

a bit confuse here :hmmmm:

Bump: how to differentiate between body roll & o/steer, u/steer?

a bit confuse here :hmmmm:
 

minivan

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Body roll is just the how much the body of the car moves from its normal position while in a corner bro...

betul kan? Not to good with the wordings on explaining dis...

And just to add to ur confusion, theres also body pitch and yaw... :biggrin:
 
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adian

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Nice website!!

But at the end of the day fellas, you've really got to get out there and do it. Couch-driving and typing on forums late at night doesnt improve anything.

I was lucky. During my 4 years doing R3, I had my own Gen2 stunt car to play around with, and the huge test track to do whatever dumb things I wanted to do with the car. Before that, I was a pretty good racing driver, yes. But thanks to mucking around after 5pm once a week at the test track as well as doing the stunt driving, my understanding and feel has improved greatly.

I can't promise you an empty test track fellas, but heading to the circuits is the next best thing. Or... we can chip in, rent the Shah Alam stadium carpark, and chuck our cars around learning Scandinavian Flicks and brake control and trail braking hehehee :P

To understand and gain confidence in how a car reacts is the best skill to have ever for our hobby. Once you have that, everything else falls into place ;)
 

pimpin323

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dah lari topic. just post your lap time in sepang in setup. no track car times ok. we want road cars.

car : mazda 323gt 1986 [email protected]
time : 2:59-3:00 (with traffic)
mods : titan coilovers 1.5 deg back n front, yokohama prada spec2 street tyres, brake pads/rotor setup still experimenting. the rest stock standard.
 

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I known dat carburator tunings can booms up d Mileage n Increase overall performance...!

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regards,
HEat
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