Typical timing for street cars at Sepang SIC

faisal

1,500 RPM
Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,864
54
3,148
The Valley
ignition.my
a lot of drivers get caught up (especially in sepang) with going faster round turns 5 and 6 and round turn 12.. all they focus on is those corners that so much so they lose focus around the other corners... there are 15 turns around sepang.. if you're fast around 3 turns.. you still have 12 to deal with.. the important thing is that you are averagely fast in all 15 turns...
I'd like to add to that point. :proud:

In general, it's easier to lose time in slow corners rather than gain in fast corners.

ie, Plenty of people still mess Turns 1,2,4,9,14,15, but in contrast perfecting their entry/exit at T5-6, T7-8, T12. Remember, T1-2 leads into an uphill climb, similiarly so does T9. And T14 & T15 leads into the main straights

Bear in mind, messing the entry and exits in/out of the slower turns result in very slow exits ending with slower speeds in the following straight leading to more time lost.
 

deacon

Senior master debater
Senior Member
May 5, 2005
1,167
30
3,148
KL
Hopefully the toe setups will be explained.

I recently had my alignment done and the joker that was doing it told me that -0.3 toe and +0.9 toe, left and right respectively is okay. I wanted both to be negative which means the tires and facing outwards correct? :mad:
 

soulV

Known Member
Senior Member
Nov 24, 2008
95
0
1,506
SoulV bro...
When i had my EF, yes i did change most of the bushings to new ones, including the big one on the trailing arm, and all using the std rubber bushes... why u ask huh?


minivan,
i read some write up regarding changing the trailing arm bush(after i've changed to superpro..deym)which reccomend changing only to OEM since teflon will change the character of the bush in term of direction of freeplay..OEM can go circle but teflon only vertival & horizontal ..this changed the purpose of a trailing arm...hmm...just could'nt find where did i save the diagram..:hmmmm:

cq...care to comment...thanks
 

faisal

1,500 RPM
Senior Member
Oct 20, 2004
1,864
54
3,148
The Valley
ignition.my
minivan,
i read some write up regarding changing the trailing arm bush(after i've changed to superpro..deym)which reccomend changing only to OEM since teflon will change the character of the bush in term of direction of freeplay..OEM can go circle but teflon only vertival & horizontal ..this changed the purpose of a trailing arm...hmm...just could'nt find where did i save the diagram..:hmmmm:

cq...care to comment...thanks
Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Most teflon/PU bushes needs lubrication to work well. After some time the lubrication wears off on u suffer from squeeks. This squeeks results from the metal parts rubbing againts the teflon/PU. Which results in the bushes wearing off, or worse breakin.

Hence most recommends replacing with OE rubber bushes. Some do change to stiffer rubber bushes (TRD , R3 Bushes). Better yet is to use sealed spherical bearings

In terms of the direction thingy, I recall the lateral/longitudinal movement being an issue for trailing arm, in a NEO at least. By changing to teflon/PU, the arm is not able to move in certain direction during load.
 
Last edited:

adian

Known Member
Senior Member
Nov 22, 2003
395
57
3,028
PJ
www.the-yeins.com
SoulV: You are right there about bushes.

Firstly, I applaud you for changing your bushes. So many ppl always overlook this most basic of necessities when setting up their car!! Brand news super duper 39-way adjustable Tein suspension means nothing when you have crap and old bushes holding everything together. Every corner you take your wheels will end up pointing left right up or down, basically everywhere but where they're supposed to point, and your handling will be rubbish!

The thing about bushes is, everything is a compromise. In the OEM world, we're totally against PU bushes. When we were in R3, we made hard-rubber bushes. They were shore 90 hardness, against the standard bushes which are like shore 40. You may notice that TRD, Mazdaspeed, Nismo, etc all produce hard rubber bushes. Only the smaller aftermarket companies which do not have the capabilities or engineering to produce hard-rubber bushes will make and try to sell you PU bushes.

PU bushes suck. Bushes are designed together as part as of the whole suspension geometry package. Some of your suspension arms, via their bushes, are engineer to deflect a certain way under certain loads and forces. All sorts of engineering stuff is taken into account: bump-steer, compliance steer, roll centre, blah blah blah. Basically, stuff that I wouldn't f*ck with wei, as it could lead to downright dangerous handling. And yet, when you replace your rubber bushes with PU sh*t, you are doing just that: altering the complete dynamics of your whole suspension. I would highly recommend against that!!

I mean ok, to be fair, certain non-dynamic bushes like swaybar mountings and link bushes, can be changed no worries. But stuff like trailing arm bushes, front and rear lower arm mountings, and strut top mounts, I wouldn't screw with. These bushes are developed with certain "paths", which when you omit, completely change the handling of the car. Oh yes, you can go the complete PU bush or even better spherical bushes route, but you really need to know what you're doing. And that's what engineers like CQ are for. And since I don't know everything about suspension, I preferably wouldn't mess with my bushes. I always buy rubber bushes where possible. They're more expensive, but they're more consistent in their performance and handling of the vehicle.

/adian
 

deacon

Senior master debater
Senior Member
May 5, 2005
1,167
30
3,148
KL
Anyone know of hard rubber bushes for Hond'uhs?
 

deacon

Senior master debater
Senior Member
May 5, 2005
1,167
30
3,148
KL
Eh you remembered its me kah hahaha!

Mugen? Hmm, sounds difficult to find. Will keep my eyes peeled for those.
 

akuma

3,000 RPM
Senior Member
Jul 16, 2005
3,489
152
1,663
Kuantan
deacon,
if MUGEN is too expensive 4 u,u can try Hard Race.....manufactured in Taiwan n mind u....dis stuffs r really good!not exactly cheap but it'll work as good as MUGEN's........if u wan d dealer's contact,PM me....i dun 1na post here wait ppl say i advertise pulak!hahahahah............if u noticed,during d Sepang 1000KM Race,a particular matte green EG Civic haf HUGE Hard Race decals on either side....dat's their track car n d owner itself is 1 of d drivers...he actually built d car frm scratch.......n yes,i call him my sifu...eheehhe

soulV,
yg u gatal2 went n chg 2 PU 4 wat?u haf so many EF buddies ard n u din consult us?now after hearing d gurus explanation abt d PU bushes,u REALLY feel like whacking urself on d head,right?n yes,in case ur wondering...Hard Race do produce hard rubber bushings 4 EF too...but u hafta b specific w d parts ur using..like ur arm..is it frm an EF1,2,3,8,9?they r different.....n abt countering a tail happy EF,dis is usually wat i do 2 my CR-X....i just simply put d spare tyre back in coz i dun drive w my spare tyre ard town.....work wonders ard SIC n also whn i was active in autocrossing.....d tail wud b more predictable n won swing out dat happily......a lil more weight yes but u get better handling.....n oh....did u check ur alignment,cambers n such again after d bush change?mayb sumthg went wrong sumwhr?n do check ur spring rates too.....generally i'll keep d front harder thn d rear.....n i usually set my TEIN HA harder in d frt too whn i go track

n just 4 d record..minivan USED 2 drive an EF...he's not driving an EP3R dy...VERY fast wor!hahahahahha
 

cqloh

Known Member
Senior Member
Aug 1, 2006
117
51
1,528
excellent post adian...

firstly, the problem with PU (especially the ones you get the machine shop guy to make) bushes is that they are not consistent. PU is basically made from a mixture of a resin and a catalyst.. much like the resin in fibre glass.. so the strength, hardness, yield limit and modulus of elasticity is dependant on how well that was mixed and how accurate those mixtures were, a slight deviation results in a different product...

secondly, bushes that are meant to comply(move,bend,deflect) from the factory already have the geometry taken into consideration. Honda spent millions to develop the suspension that went into their cars.. its arguable that they were meant for the streets.. but that doesn;t mean that
by going something harder and stiffer you're gonna get a better car. adians already touched this topic so i'll leave it at that.

to answer soulVs question... if you look at the OEM trailing arm bush you will notice that there are gaps in the bush for the metal rod to deflect in all directions.. the superpro stuff is one solid piece.. and does NOT deflect...and it took me so long to get the alignment correct on that car. every time the car was driven.. the alignment went haywire.. from experience i thought it was the biggest con job.. i never used those bushes again...
HOWEVER... there's always more than one way to skin a cat... if the car is indeed oversteering from the bush... check your alignment and dial in about 1-2mm or toe in

my advice is the same as adian's... get OEM or get hard rubber bushes from your vehicle make's motorsport department... everything else is questionable. be very weary of items that are cheap... because at the end of the day.. you'll pay the price in a different way..

if it was a car thats only meant for the track... i only use good quality sphericals... much of that is also dependant on your machinist.. so be good buddies with him and you'll be alright.

the point of today's lesson is that BUSHES PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO YOUR CARS HANDLING...
it can change the cars balance entirely.. good if it suits your driving style.. but its a horror if its not doing what you want it to..

lastly... if you're gonna change the bushes.. change them ALL.. save up and have them all changed at the same time... go get an alignment done.. and go to the track... i'll guarantee you'll feel like its another car.
 
Last edited:

kennethcyf

Active Member
Senior Member
Sep 12, 2006
33
0
1,506
Hardrace bushing is superb...I am My White EG6 track car is using this......full pillowball bushing....Handling is superb..... The Hardrace dealer Mr. Joe is my good friend..... He can advise you if you have any question....
 

cqloh

Known Member
Senior Member
Aug 1, 2006
117
51
1,528
its late.. and i suddenly feel like talking about toe.. haha.. you get urges sometimes... so for those that are interested in what i have to say, i thank you in advance for paying attention and hope you learn something new.

the most important and often overlooked performance part in a car is the tire.
think about it for a moment.. over 1 tonne of your vehicles weight sits on 4 areas.. each the size of your palm.. the contact patch. now.. everything that you do.. be it driving, increasing horse power, increasing torque, braking, turning, accelerating, chaging shocks, springs etc etc affect the contact patch. thats alot for something that small...

now the modern tire is an amazing piece of technological advancement... having the ability to deform and to reform, bend, flex, absorb shock and accept heat above bearing the weight of your overweight ass and the car.
as with all components of racing.. it is also a compromise... i'm not going into every area of what makes a tire generate grip since each tire differs in construction, compound, side wall stiffness etc etc.. most manufacturers keep the precise values secret.

but the important lesson to today is about slip angle. alot of you guys will probably hear this for the first time and never would have thought it made such a difference.
the text book definition of slip angle is the angle between the direction of the rim and the undeflected contact patch of the tire.

wtf??!???!????

tires are made from rubber. rubber is pliable. rubber has a delayed reaction expecially when you have the force of the ground pulling and the weight of the car pushing. so if you imagine your car going down the straight.. the tire is in an undeformed state.. as soon as you turn the steering wheel and hence change the direction of the wheel... the tire will take a certain amount of time to react. so you can imagine your tires facing straight and the rim already turned.. the angle between the tire and the rim is called the slip angle.

now i'm not going into the calculations and the reasoning of why this happens (usually takes about 6 months of explaining in a degree course.. so you'll just have to take my word for it). but as this slip angle increases grip increases up until your reach a point where it falls away. so the graph is a hyperbola....
the idea is to stay at the peak of the hyperbola where there is maximum grip...

how does this affect you? when you dial in more static toe.. you are effectively dialing in more slip angle at a certain turn... the question is, is that slip angle before, at the peak or over the peak of the tires slip angle curve?

thats where you have to test and figure out the slip angle characteristic of your tires.. each tire has a different slip angle graph..
and to complicate things even further.. temperature, pressure, weight, baro, air density and humidity all play a part...

who ever said life was easy?

:proud: gotta love racing hey?:proud:
 

deacon

Senior master debater
Senior Member
May 5, 2005
1,167
30
3,148
KL
Woooo from a few questions to more questions :adore:
 

soulV

Known Member
Senior Member
Nov 24, 2008
95
0
1,506
nganganganga:hmmmm:

eventho i can only understand haf of wat cq wrote but it interest me a lot( regret of not finishing my engineering study bef but went to study business & become poor govt servant)...hahahha..

adian/faisal,
thanks alot for the explaination..

akuma,
i think i need to consider changing the bush(before or after july 18..poket koyak already) what say u...? just too excited to change the bushes bef n u r deym rite that i shud get feedback 1st & deymm u do know how i feel after reading adian's post :nurse:

i think this is the best thread so far i'm involved in because of u get the experience driver to explain how the car behave and an engineer to explain why...i really cant wait for practical just to clear my doubt......aarrgghh..:bawling:
 

minivan

1,500 RPM
Senior Member
Jun 11, 2004
1,793
121
3,163
BBBangi/KL
Visit site
Wah... getting more and more interesting... and pening :biggrin:

First things first.... so Super Pros are rubbish??? Damn!! I just bought a set for the lower control arms. No time to pasang yet... so i guess i should return them to hokomoto huh? and get a set from hardrace instead?? Who got number?

On toes...for amature part-timer-racer-wannabes like me, how are we gonna figure out the 'slip angle characteristic of our tires'?? How do you pros do this? or would you recommend us amatures to just stick to zero toe...

Akuma... my 2-door-Jazz tall and heavy la, not like ur feather-lite-ultra-aerodynamic rex...
 
Last edited: