Typical timing for street cars at Sepang SIC

cqloh

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CQ: Re raising and lowering the ride height, not correct meh? I have always started setting up with a flat car, measured from wheel centre hub. And for track and drifting I always try to dial in something lower at the rear by 5-10mm, as it helps a lot braking deep into the turns, and i'm able to achieve a better balance point.
I do know however that raising the front a by too much promotes 'push', and the opposite for the rear. You're explanation, when you have the time, is most welcome!
a few key factors we have to take into account is that:

1.under steer and over steer is a difference in the lateral grip front and rear of a vehicle.
2.geometry is a function of ride height and thus grip generated from correct geometry is a function of the vehicle operating at that ride height
3.lowering a vehicles ride height reduces the height of the vehicles center or mass

having stated the above a question pops into mind.. 'ive lowered my car.. why does it drive like a piece of shit?'
the simple explanation is that your vehicle was designed to run at the height that it came with out of the factory.. by lowering the ride height you have effectively changed the vehicles camber change, anti dive, toe change and caster change in ride(up down movement of suspension) and roll..

you are correct when you said raising the ride height at the front would reduce understeer, because you're going closer to the height the car came with.. however, it doesn;t improve the vehicles total lateral grip.

lowering a vehicle doesn;t just involve buying a set of shocks thats height adjustable.. it also involves putting back all the variables i have stated above..

i apologise for jumping the gun because you were refering to balance... not to increasing grip
 

akuma

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soulV,
EBC stuffs u can generally get 'em frm Pentagon......price varies....try asking Chris...

n hey...1na ask abt corner weighing......will a street car like mine gain anythg frm it?shud i do it?n whn shud i do it coz i understand dat even minute stuffs like tyre/wheel changing can upset d balance....
 

cqloh

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akuma... corner weighing is probably the best thing you could do for a street/track car when you've run out of options..
but there aren;t many people that can do it right here.. my general experience is that most street car owners will think i'm mad for charging them what i do.

what most street car owners don;t understand is the amount of time taken to make the correct adjustments and the experience required to balance the car... any monkey can get the weights correct.. but they haven;t taken into account the other variables when you overload the preload in the springs...

to answer your question, i'd suggest trying everything you can with set up (leaving your engine and gear ratios as is) until you are about to give up.. then give corner weighing a try..
and yes, small changes do upset the balance.. wheel and tire size are a given.. tire compound, tire pressure, even what you pump into the tires makes a minute difference..
at the end of the day.. the guy that does your set up should tie all that together and give you something to start off with.. in my opinion.. if he;s taken your money.. he's obligated to solve all your problems and make sure you're happy with what you get.

to clear things up.. corner weighing isn;t about putting your car on a set of scales and then moving stuff about.. there alot more to it.. you've got to take into account ride frequencies, spring slag, alignment changes, weight transfers etc... not to be putting down other workshops.. but they're charging you 200 bucks to get your car on the scales... you're getting ripped off..
it takes about 4 hours to do a good corner weight (unless my guys and me are that slow?!?)
so its something thats rarely done on a street car...

anyway.. thats my 2 cents..

hope it makes sense
 

minivan

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1 more thg i'd like 2 add..BRAKES!very important component too 4 track days....might need 2 spend a lil more but w better brakes....u tend 2 brake later n also more consistent......+ on a lightweight car like my EF CRX..heheee.....i can brake @ almost d 50M mark on d main straight n continue doin so for 4-5 laps...no brake fade @ all......
oh,btw,i'm running EBC Red Stuffs front w Brembo slotted rotors n EBC Green Stuffs rear w stock rotors.....front camber -2.5deg,rear -1.5deg....195/55/15 AD07..my laptime?dun ask...d only time i my passenger "managed" 2 time me,i did a 2.56:xx...chis!hahahahahah
Wah bro... i would say for a light car like the EF/CRX, u've got a really good set of brakes... I use to run metal kings all round on stock rotors on my EF, but it never skipped a beat... but then again, i may not have been pushing as hard as u.... on the camber setting, i ran almost the exact opposite of what u've done, front -1.5 rear -2, as my EF's rear end was tail happy in corners, so i needed a bit more grip in the rear...

But there is a huge difference with a light and heavy car on how they feel/react in corners/under braking. I once had the opportunity to drive a friend's E7 (1400kg) at sepang compared to my EF's +-980kg. Brakes eventho were brembo, i thot can late brake kaw-kaw, but ended almost overshoting corners as i forgot how heavy the car was, and in corners, well... i prefered my EFs feel, much more fun and enjoyable. I'm used to the feel of lighter machines, so i'm sticking to hondas... :driver:
 

soulV

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minivan,
can u pls help me by explain why does ur car o/steer more than u/steer since normally ef will u/steer...is it the set up?
 

K-Kid

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CQ, :top: Great write up. I always thought lowering the vehicles center or mass is the way to go. Anyway, so how do we improve lateral grip? Mind to give a few pointer?
 
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minivan

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minivan,
can u pls help me by explain why does ur car o/steer more than u/steer since normally ef will u/steer...is it the set up?
EF's are a tiny bit weird. Yes, they do tend to understeer like any other FF car, but its the rear end that tends to be a bit loose and 'tail happy'. I'm not making up this term, i read it in an article about the handling characteristics of EFs on the net somewhere (can't remember where i got it from). And its not so much of oversteer like what happens in an FR car, where the back wheels want to overtake the front, but its more of the rear end coming loose under a cornering situation, so its more like slowly slipping into a spin.

So the article simply suggested for the rear chamber to be set more negative then the front. Thats what i tried and it worked. The rear end gripped more and that funny feeling of possibly loosing it in the corners was eliminated. Before that, i spun my EF a couple of times in Sepang... :biggrin:

But, this characteristic has also been put to good use, its one of the reasons why EFs are popular as FF drift cars, like the falken EF drift car...
 

soulV

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thanks minivan,
i've also read something similar like this in the web(also cant remember where,probably the u.s guys)
where they liike to use stiffer spring rate at rear than front on their ef to prevent o/steer...hmm...for the time being i think need to stick to the conservative set up n spun a few times then only change...heheh..:idea:

Bump: thanks minivan,
i've also read something similar like this in the web(also cant remember where,probably the u.s guys)
where they liike to use stiffer spring rate at rear than front on their ef to prevent o/steer...hmm...for the time being i think need to stick to the conservative set up n spun a few times then only change...heheh..:idea:
 

adian

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CQ: Ahh, you're referring to the change of geometry from lowering the car. This no doubt changes. For a good explanation with diagram references, do check my webpage http://www.the-yeins.com/pages/cars/projectv-1.htm

My reference to lowering and raising the ride heights is, of course, with the basis that this is conducted within a maximum lowering of about 50mm from standard, and if you have adjustable tie-rods this would be better. And also, adjust the alignment, camber etc all over again everytime you change the ride height.

It all sounds quite hardcore, but this is what we go through when we "dial-in" our race cars. People think it's such a fun job to go whacking around the track all day 'testing' a race car, but actually it can be very tiring and boring. It's like, you go out for 5 laps, get a reading, am not happy, try 5 more laps to confirm that you dont like it, then the boys jack up the car and make all the adjustments including alignment and geometry checks (total time is about 60mins) and then you go out again for 5 more laps, and find out it's even worse, and you're back to square one and keep on testing and adjusting and testing and adjusting :)

For your street car tho, honestly, before heading to the track, set the ride height to flat, do the alignment properly, and go have a whack! It'll make a big big diff!

Akuma: Regarding brakes, this is a good point too! It all comes down to $$$ tho. At minimum, you'd want to get yourself some proper hardcore brake pads. When I was developing R3 cars and parts, we tested over 10 different types and brands of brake pads. And when we test, it's very exhaustive and follows strict processes and procedures with the proper OEM-level (expensive!) equipment to ensure proper results. Brand new discs with each new pad test, same driver, same car, same environment, etc. We tested EBC Greens and Reds, Mintex Redbox and M1144 and M1155 and M1166, all of Project Mu's and Endless different grades (abt 4 grades each brand!), Hawk (from US), Ferodo DS 2000 DS 3000 DS 4000, TRW, and Tarox.. and some local stuff like StopTech and AXT (I think that's abt it if I recall!!).

As you may know, in the end we chose Mintex M1144s as the official R3 brake pads. Expensive tho, and may squeek sometimes, but great all-rounder... imagine EBC Redstuff but even better! However they're a bit expensive.

Some other great stuff (these are not my personal recommendations, merely observations and my personal point of view. Do not blame me if you buy them and dont like them):
- For track days, EBC Reds are great. Greens are pointless.
- Ferodo DS2000 didn't do well at all. DS3000 high wear, expensive
- Project Mu and Endless stuff can't go wrong, but you get what you pay for. I recall the middle-level compounds were great all-rounders.
- TRW & Mintex Redbox are simply OEM + 10% levels. That's why they're affordable. But they don't squeek, have less dust, and last ages.
- The local pads were dangerous! At SIC, there was a particular brand (I forgot their name, not StopTech) ate up a brand new set of discs in 7 laps! And I think AXT has very high pedal travel and pressure required, it's like your brake pedal goes to the floor before any braking was felt!

And lastly, for your rear brakes, just use standard discs and standard pads. They will never overheat or wear out, as they only do about 30% of the braking at most :)

/adian
 
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cqloh

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adian: LOL... heaps of people think that driving, building and setting up a race car is so fun and so cool.. there are times when you wonder what the heck you're doing all this for.. hahah...

for the guys out there.. racing is about practicing and testing.. the more testing you do.. the more data you collect.. the more experience you have.. the more likely you're going to be competitive.
 

cqloh

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minivan: when the oversteering feeling went away did you start to understeer?
i've never worked on an EF before.. but i'm assuming that the trailing arm setup is the same with EGs and EKs... with those cars i usually run about 2 degrees camber... if its a lil hairy in the straights and on the brakes i'll dail in 1-2mm toe in.

should be worth a try

Bump: minivan: when the oversteering feeling went away did you start to understeer?
i've never worked on an EF before.. but i'm assuming that the trailing arm setup is the same with EGs and EKs... with those cars i usually run about 2 degrees camber... if its a lil hairy in the straights and on the brakes i'll dail in 1-2mm toe in.

should be worth a try
 

soulV

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minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks:bawling:

Bump: minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks:bawling:

Bump: minivan, have u change ur trailing arm bushing or done anything to the trailing arm...i'm experiencing o/steer with my car now ...need to figure our why since nver happend before...change all my bushing front & rear to superpro including trailing arm n also change my suspension + new antiroll bar rear & new front & rear strut bar....hmm...can anyone answer me where r the possible cause of o/steer to my EF?

thanks:bawling:
 

faisal

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:adore: Wah, Adian & cqloh have really gone to town with this thread. Combined it makes for an interesting read, when one has the time to do so.


adian.. hahah you're very welcome.. its always good when a driver appreciates an engineeres explanations.. they usually shrug and say "i just know how to drive"....
Haha That sounds a bit like me. Though in my defense once it gets TOO technical, my brain can't cope as I need to focus on driving :stupid: ..
 

minivan

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CQ...
Yes, it just understeered, but quite normally as FFs tend to do. Nothing out of the ordinary i would say...EF and EG trailing arms are the same, EKs are just a tiny bit different, i think... But u don't get that feeling in EGs or EKs. They're pretty sure footed...

Care to explain a bit more of toes bro? Never really played around with toe settings... how do they effect a cars handling?

SoulV bro...
When i had my EF, yes i did change most of the bushings to new ones, including the big one on the trailing arm, and all using the std rubber bushes... why u ask huh?

hmm... oversteering EF huh?! What chamber setting u running now?? Try running less -neg chamber up front first la... or start like how adian suggested... 'reset' everything first... Level the car to a not too low not to high height, redo alignment, maybe set only -1 chamber all round first, then see how the car feels. Only then start tweaking little by little (height, chamber, etc)
 

cqloh

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alright guys... this is that part about cars that people get really get put off about..
but here we have the perfect example...
soulV and minivan both drive EFs (whether crx or EF9)... one has a tendency to over steer and one has a tendency to under. both are essentially the same car when they left the honda factory in good old nihon..

the explanation is a rather lengthy one.. and it is also one that is most important when it comes to racing. alot of people (especially in malaysia) get lost in the world of engine power and what "the other guys is doing". here we have two schools of thought.... one guy went and changed his bushes.. one guy changed his roll bars.. two might have different brake pads and brake settings.. they might also differ in terms of engine power, cam characteristics hence engine torque, gear ratios etc etc.. the list is as long as it is broad...

whats difficult for most people to grasp is that to be able to get from point A to point B and back again; in essence cirumnavigate a given track, circuit, course.... is the law of averages.
everything had to be averaged.. everything has to be equalized and hence BALANCED.

alot of drivers get caught up (especially in sepang) with going faster round turns 5 and 6 and round turn 12.. all they focus on is those corners that so much so they lose focus around the other corners... there are 15 turns around sepang.. if you're fast around 3 turns.. you still have 12 to deal with.. the important thing is that you are averagely fast in all 15 turns...

back to the issue with soulV and minivan.. they are the same cars from birth.. but differ vastly in settings... soulV has changed his roll bars... minivan didn;t.. they both might differ in springs and in damping rates(shocks)... hence they differ in balance.. there are alot of possibilities and alot of solutions.. but one must first identify the try problem...

from experience.. the possibility might be that soulV might have too hard a REAR roll bar or too hard a rear spring rate or too stiff a shock setting or some really screwed up alignment.. the list goes on and on..

minivan might have the exact opposite.. bit if he's running stock roll bars.. chances are he's got the wrong alignment or the wrong shocks..

remember that over steer and under steer is the balance of grip front and rear.. too much front grip and the car oversteers.. too much rear and the car unders...

which is why we set everything to ZERO when we test race cars... start from scratch and go from there...

one more thing... FF and FRs both understeer from the factory.. this balance is set because its easier to correct an understeering car than it is an oversteering car.. just because the the car you drive is FF and it understeers doesn;t mean that its meant to.. its does that because it was set up to.. a FF car can be set to oversteer just like a RWD car... but just not the way you see it when they guys in D1 drift...

as for toe settings... maybe another day... LOL..

hope this helps and hope you guys don;t start busting your balls...:boxing::rofl:
 

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