Hydrogen RX8

woaychee

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I watched the HotVersion v97. One of the chapters introduced the Hydrogen Mazda RX8. What you guys opinion? Eager to know how many HP can produce for this car.

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ロータリーエンジンが持つ意外な特性が未来への可能性を切り開く!
これが水素ロータリーRX-8だ。

Translate to English: An unexpected characteristic of the rotary engine cuts the possibility to the future open.
This is hydrogen rotary RX8. It is eight.
 

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savahn

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Hydrogen is a bad idea. Unless someone invents a method to "mine" hydrogen from somewhere, this power alternative does not work.

The reason is simple, in order to make hydrogen, we have to use electrolysis. And what is going to power the electrolysis? Oil. Hydrogen becomes a power storage instead of a net power contributer.

Hydrogen in a rotary also does not make much sense as rotaries are already not efficient with regular petrol (maybe 7km per litre). Now add the hydrogen overhead of -20% and you have probably one of the most fuel hungry cars in existance (5km per liter? Holy crap).

[edit] Forgot to answer your question:
HP Petrol : Hydrogen
210PS (222NM) : 109PS (140NM)
 
Last edited:

zealless

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Hydrogen is a bad idea. Unless someone invents a method to "mine" hydrogen from somewhere, this power alternative does not work.

The reason is simple, in order to make hydrogen, we have to use electrolysis. And what is going to power the electrolysis? Oil. Hydrogen becomes a power storage instead of a net power contributer.

Hydrogen in a rotary also does not make much sense as rotaries are already not efficient with regular petrol (maybe 7km per litre). Now add the hydrogen overhead of -20% and you have probably one of the most fuel hungry cars in existance (5km per liter? Holy crap).

[edit] Forgot to answer your question:
HP Petrol : Hydrogen
210PS (222NM) : 109PS (140NM)
It is easy to harvest and store hydrogen, and it is free. You just need to invest in a hydrogen station + solar panel and you will get 15 - 20 yrs free hydrogen. (base on lifespan of the station and solar panel) power source = SUN

Rotary is effective as a combustible engine compare to diesel engine, most other hydrogen vehicle is running on fuel cell technology, which depend on chemical reaction of a fuel cell. Fuel cell more efficient but is expensive to make and short lifespan. In arab and japan they already building hydrogen power plant and harvesting plant. Bare in mind that rotary hydrogen engine is prototype, a straight conversion from a normal engine (just change the spray nozzle and regulator). Also, the method of storing hydrogen in compress tank, so it is much lighter compare to petrol. Gas vs Liquid.

You shouldn't really compare with a petrol engine, should compare with a gas combustible engine. NOTE* LPG is not gas medium, is liquid.

Hydrogen home station should be RM15K, solar panels should be RM22K (base on 1kw) = RM35K for 15 - 20 year fuel.

please google:
Hydrogen Home station <- i can send you how efficient is a hydrogen station using solar panels. Energy cost free, emission free. i have CISCO wif RMIT (melb) data and MIT (US) data, daily generate about 6bar constant.

Storage <- quantum hydogren storage tank <- at the moment the max capability is 10,000 psi.
and they can couple and make a 20K psi, something like 500km.

if you need any information, PM me, btw, i am soon running a hydrogen rotary, expect 2010. because need time to get license from DOSH, hydrogen supply from MOX .. eheh
 

babyken

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Hydrogen is a bad idea. Unless someone invents a method to "mine" hydrogen from somewhere, this power alternative does not work.

The reason is simple, in order to make hydrogen, we have to use electrolysis. And what is going to power the electrolysis? Oil. Hydrogen becomes a power storage instead of a net power contributer.

Hydrogen in a rotary also does not make much sense as rotaries are already not efficient with regular petrol (maybe 7km per litre). Now add the hydrogen overhead of -20% and you have probably one of the most fuel hungry cars in existance (5km per liter? Holy crap).

[edit] Forgot to answer your question:
HP Petrol : Hydrogen
210PS (222NM) : 109PS (140NM)
dude, it is saying about hydrogen base rotary that save on petrol and save earth = more future..
you miss the point...

Bump: yep it means hydrogen from pump station it just that malaysia wont have that kind of thing... and no one know when... it is all about business... oil, petrol business is such a huge flow for them, they wont go for hydrogen so fast... sigh.... politics, business,......:banghead:

Bump: yep it means hydrogen from pump station it just that malaysia wont have that kind of thing... and no one know when... it is all about business... oil, petrol business is such a huge flow for them, they wont go for hydrogen so fast... sigh.... politics, business,......:banghead:
 

zealless

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well, you can look up hydrogen home station; is non government thing ...
if you can afford it, you can own it

now is the case of:
are you going to pay to get a bigger turbo, more power; or a smaller hp, greener car ...
 

keisukosan

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This car promote long time ago le why still take it out talk le?i think is last year gua cuz i got take this rx8 hydrogen to do my project... :driver:
 

zealless

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This car promote long time ago le why still take it out talk le?i think is last year gua cuz i got take this rx8 hydrogen to do my project... :driver:
project? u building one ?

the main problem about this engine is the spray nozzle, since is not liquid, is gas. it is difficult to regulate the amount of gas at suitable rpm and speed. lots of calculator man ... dun dare to run one even i have one ... coz the calculation might blown the engine ...
 

keisukosan

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I not means tat i build la bro,is i use it as my project for my studies...
 

woaychee

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this project started in year 2007, and the running prototype appeared in HotVersion Episod 97.
 

savahn

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Zealles: I have read that before. I am interested to hear your result. And where did you get the quote for the hydrogen station plus solar setup? I did a recent survey on solar array for my own house and it was very NOT cheap.

Also, we are looking at power EFFICIENCY. Of course I am going to compare with petrol because RM 1 of petrol is RM 1. It is not the same with hydrogen because you have building costs adding on the whole petrol refining process. Do remember that with SOLAR power, it is not consistent since you are depending on Malaysian weather - half raining. The other day raining whole day!

I truly wait for the time where solar power will be cheap enough that we can have a setup at home.

BabyKen: You missed the point. Yes, moving from petrol to hydrogen will 'save the earth'. But at this point of time, you are just moving the problem around. The primary source of energy today is still petrol - there is nothing cheaper and the infrastructure is everywhere. You are expending petrol to make hydrogen - is this is a viable alternative?

Solar power is a good way to make hydrogen but it still need to mature and prices need to come down. The future will be much brighter when we have widespread solar and fusion power.

Its the same deal with Bio-fuel. Plant crops like wheat, barley, soy, etc to make bio-diesel and bio-petrol. But doing so resulted in the wide-spread destruction of the amazon rain-forest. The whole point of moving away from fossil fuels is to reduce our CARBON FOOT-PRINT. Do you have any idea how much carbon was stored in the Amazon? Buy clearing (burning) that forest, we just added to the problem.

Yes, moving to hydrogen is a good idea ultimately. But more needs to be done now to realise this goal.
 

zealless

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I not means tat i build la bro,is i use it as my project for my studies...
What is your finding in your project ? share a bit la ... efficiency ? alternative energy paper ?

Bump:
Zealles: I have read that before. I am interested to hear your result. And where did you get the quote for the hydrogen station plus solar setup? I did a recent survey on solar array for my own house and it was very NOT cheap.

Also, we are looking at power EFFICIENCY. Of course I am going to compare with petrol because RM 1 of petrol is RM 1. It is not the same with hydrogen because you have building costs adding on the whole petrol refining process. Do remember that with SOLAR power, it is not consistent since you are depending on Malaysian weather - half raining. The other day raining whole day!

I truly wait for the time where solar power will be cheap enough that we can have a setup at home.

BabyKen: You missed the point. Yes, moving from petrol to hydrogen will 'save the earth'. But at this point of time, you are just moving the problem around. The primary source of energy today is still petrol - there is nothing cheaper and the infrastructure is everywhere. You are expending petrol to make hydrogen - is this is a viable alternative?

Solar power is a good way to make hydrogen but it still need to mature and prices need to come down. The future will be much brighter when we have widespread solar and fusion power.

Its the same deal with Bio-fuel. Plant crops like wheat, barley, soy, etc to make bio-diesel and bio-petrol. But doing so resulted in the wide-spread destruction of the amazon rain-forest. The whole point of moving away from fossil fuels is to reduce our CARBON FOOT-PRINT. Do you have any idea how much carbon was stored in the Amazon? Buy clearing (burning) that forest, we just added to the problem.

Yes, moving to hydrogen is a good idea ultimately. But more needs to be done now to realise this goal.
Yes, solar setup at the moment (market price) is RM22K per kW, yes it is very expensive where oil is much cheaper, but in a long run, let say 20 years, petrol won't cost RM1.80 anymore, it will be RM18 a litre ? this is assume when petrol is running out.

Refining petrol is much more expensive than harvesting Hydrogen. At least you say half of the time malaysia have rain. Water = free and sun = free. We do not need to drill and process like oil. but of course oil by product also useful la.

The solar panel or hydrogen home station is not efficient at the moment, 6 bar (according to Cisco data) is like less than 100 psi, barely fill 10% of the hydrogen tank (10K psi). The thing is the hydrogen technology is not advancing because people refuse to use it, this is bad for the technology. Like 1960s, petrol engine is like 1 litre going 4km ? they need 5.0L V12 to get 200 hp ? now, hydrogen technology is just like petrol engine in the 60 - 70s.

I totally disagree when you mention about Malaysia weather is not suitable where half of the time is raining, we get more than 8 hours of sun a day, compare to overseas which only have less than 8 hours a day during winter. This is the best thing that Malaysia have, SUN. Bare in mind overseas have wind ! we have "zero" wind capacity to generate power. Luckily we have hydro power, maybe "current" wave technology may be applicable.

The government is heading to that, if you want i have a 2009 energy convention conference (200+ pages) about advancing solar technology use in malaysia. They are talking about grid back system, and solar as main power source to supply and generate power. The price will drop if there are 10 million solar panels orders in malaysia, aiming at RM10 -15K per kW target. But solar cannot store energy, only capacitor or battery (these medium die quickly and not recyclable). Hydrogen is the most suitable medium for storage of energy.

Biofuel is not useful, because with current population, we are always shortage for food, no way we got enough extra fuel to play with.

Unless, the ultimate solution of this all, wipe half of the population in earth, so less demand, less pollution and everything less. LOL :smokin:
 

savahn

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Zealless,

I am a strong supporter of photovoltaics. I agree with you on a lot of the things you mentioned. However, when I was talking about Malaysian weather, I was talking about power efficiency, not that Malaysian is unsuitable. There was a group of us who wanted to do some business on solar power. Unfortunately, the entry cost at the time was too high. Currently, solar panel production is more efficient and lower cost so the idea is being revived.

The problem we encountered was the efficiency of solar panel technology against its cost - and no support from government. We did a survey within Klang Valley on how many days of FULL 8 hours sunlight against partial sunlight (due to clouds and rain).

Even with some simple sun tracking enhancement (panel will generate at near 100% efficiency when facing sun directly but drops when at a gradient), we were not yet convinced that the power produced would pay back the investment in a reasonable time (15years). One of us mentioned that he would make more money by buying public bank stock and taking dividends than investing in solar power.

The 2009 energy convention conference was interesting. But have you seen anything on solar energy in the budget? Has TM launched a power buy-back program that the public can participate in?

We cant yet run away from fossil fuel yet (and bio-fuel derivatives) when using solar as a alternative. During day time, we would be able to reach grid parity - as in, possible to power all Malaysia using solar only. But come night time, traditional power generation has to come online to compensate. This would reduce the cost of power production over-all. I dont know about doing 2x grid parity so that you have surplus to make Hydrogen for night time use but it does not seem likely.

First Solar, a US company, has a factory in Glenmarie producing 192MW equivalent of panels a year at end 2008. By 2010, it will be 4x times more. Unfortunately, these panels are being export to Germany as the German government has a strong solar power promotion program. This is sad because Malaysia is a better country for photovoltaics - except for the stupid rain.

There is at least one other solar panel producer in Malaysia - I think its factory is in Bangi.
 
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Lennon

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Very interesting discussion here.....

It's the matter of our G's decision to subsidise Green Technology or forever drilling for fuel like a caveman..... You see G's biggest revenue is tax on petrol and natural gas, they won't simply give way becos you are not generating power with petrol, coal or natural gas...... G's isn't getting tax money becos taxing solar generated power is insane ( You wont wanna mess with green peace fella) ..... TNB doesn't want public to generate their watts and sell it back to grid, which in term will have a big conflict against IPPs...... Mind you that most IPPs had TNB people behind thats why when we ask for lower tariff, all sort of rubbish reasons come out.......... We are always on the losing end against IPPs..... You can see how the contract was drafted for supremacy given to IPPs, like what Highway operator are doing.......

No doubt we will be driving a hydrogen car soon...... But the matter is how to get the hydrogen at cheap rate..... Generally i like to have solar panel on my roof top....
 

keisukosan

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What is your finding in your project ? share a bit la ... efficiency ? alternative energy paper ?

Bump:


Actually i search it from net than pass up for my project,so i not so well know bout it cuz tat time wat car also dunno at all... :adore:
sorry bout i dunno how to share with u all but is u all share with me....
 
Last edited:

zealless

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Zealless,

I am a strong supporter of photovoltaics. I agree with you on a lot of the things you mentioned. However, when I was talking about Malaysian weather, I was talking about power efficiency, not that Malaysian is unsuitable. There was a group of us who wanted to do some business on solar power. Unfortunately, the entry cost at the time was too high. Currently, solar panel production is more efficient and lower cost so the idea is being revived.

The problem we encountered was the efficiency of solar panel technology against its cost - and no support from government. We did a survey within Klang Valley on how many days of FULL 8 hours sunlight against partial sunlight (due to clouds and rain).

Even with some simple sun tracking enhancement (panel will generate at near 100% efficiency when facing sun directly but drops when at a gradient), we were not yet convinced that the power produced would pay back the investment in a reasonable time (15years). One of us mentioned that he would make more money by buying public bank stock and taking dividends than investing in solar power.

The 2009 energy convention conference was interesting. But have you seen anything on solar energy in the budget? Has TM launched a power buy-back program that the public can participate in?

We cant yet run away from fossil fuel yet (and bio-fuel derivatives) when using solar as a alternative. During day time, we would be able to reach grid parity - as in, possible to power all Malaysia using solar only. But come night time, traditional power generation has to come online to compensate. This would reduce the cost of power production over-all. I dont know about doing 2x grid parity so that you have surplus to make Hydrogen for night time use but it does not seem likely.

First Solar, a US company, has a factory in Glenmarie producing 192MW equivalent of panels a year at end 2008. By 2010, it will be 4x times more. Unfortunately, these panels are being export to Germany as the German government has a strong solar power promotion program. This is sad because Malaysia is a better country for photovoltaics - except for the stupid rain.

There is at least one other solar panel producer in Malaysia - I think its factory is in Bangi.
Hi,

well due to how sun works in malaysia, i understand why we cannot get 100% due to the sun are not always in the middle, only during noon. "heliostat" is using this sun tracking capability; this is not out scale for public, is for government, what we can do is private sun tracking pv panel. Yes, we will not get 7 days a week will full 8 hours (we get more than 8 hours a day) sun, but 4-5 day a week is good enough to offset our energy bill. tnb is not discussing this (in the energy conference) because we got a new energy minister; however trial is going on, let say someone is selling it back to tnb at the moment, can't discuss more here, later you will know when you read "thestar". trial selling price is 1 to x, means 1kw u sell is = to xkw you buy, but this for studies only, offset the experiment price, real price, let u know later... pm me ... *X is more than 1 ... hehe :idea:

as i have mentioned earlier , public have to invest in it. mass production = cheap
see how much is a 200hp car back in the old days, you must driving a ferrari, and lambo to get those sort of power. now, a type r or a 1.3L rotary can do the job with better mileage. if we don't get start with solar technology, the technology won't improve; well to get good news to you, there is a improve PV panel out soon. again pm me with your email, will reply once i have that, but is not roof mount, probably suitable for backyard or some void area.

hydrogen generate during the day should be enough to feed us all during the night, basically like my house, only my mum in the house in the day, all other member is working, how can a person use so much energy. we harvest and store for night. design a better home, hi energy efficiency home, hydrogen should able to power the house during the night and have surplus.

hydrogen is a medium, not actually power source, you still need to convert hydrogen to electricity; well, one day we will run out of oil, what left is bio-mass (butane), natural gas, biodiesel and etc. so this will be a primary source to burn in power plant, well we have to offset a much a possible to avoid a world crisis. what everyone is thinking is commercial ($ point of view), money money money. i tell you if they get rid of AP, everyone can afford this, is not the world problem or technology, is our government.

anyway, i know our government is doing something now for solar, because few polyethylene plant being setup, raw material for solar panel. we got 3 major plant in malaysia, first solar, Q cell and one more... forgot the name. they are in strong ties with Malaysia government, so let hope and pray this happen and this will generate good $ for our people and country.

Bump:
Very interesting discussion here.....

It's the matter of our G's decision to subsidise Green Technology or forever drilling for fuel like a caveman..... You see G's biggest revenue is tax on petrol and natural gas, they won't simply give way becos you are not generating power with petrol, coal or natural gas...... G's isn't getting tax money becos taxing solar generated power is insane ( You wont wanna mess with green peace fella) ..... TNB doesn't want public to generate their watts and sell it back to grid, which in term will have a big conflict against IPPs...... Mind you that most IPPs had TNB people behind thats why when we ask for lower tariff, all sort of rubbish reasons come out.......... We are always on the losing end against IPPs..... You can see how the contract was drafted for supremacy given to IPPs, like what Highway operator are doing.......

No doubt we will be driving a hydrogen car soon...... But the matter is how to get the hydrogen at cheap rate..... Generally i like to have solar panel on my roof top....
damn agree with you, politics ... yeerrr ... and anyway, hope the 1.6L rotary is more efficient and low maintenance
 

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