Wira Aeroback (4g15, 6a10)

[lsm1991]

ohh... i had a friend with this engine plonked into a satria, then he got rid of it, and bought a perdana which apparently was another regret of his before he absolved all regrets by plonking in the 4g63t into that. let me warn you, more bad than good will come from this....

the maintanance of this thing is that of a perdana but you only get a tiny bit of power from it. fortunately alot of the other bits are the same as the perdana parts, Unfortunately, it means you pay perdana prices for a 1.6L. Some parts (cant remember which) were an absolute hell to cari and when you do, it costs an even bigger bomb.

sparkplugs are an absolute @#$%* to deal with (i have 1st hand exp here) and basically you have alot more parts to maintain (as you obviously already know)... and lets be honest, its not as easy to reliably squeeze power out of. these na 6aXX engines were not built to deal with alot of power like to rev and their power curve is very linear. Heck even the even the 6a12mivec which was built to do the job feels very linear, compared to the 'nivec' models basically has more top end power.

now if the idea is to get a bang for buck decent performance engine, this really isnt the way to go.
you stroke it, 6 pistons need to be replaced, you need to bore 6 holes. The last issue which may or may not put you off is the general available info/expertise with these engines. You can easily find ppl to squeeze power out of any of those 4 potters, but with this v6, forget off the shelf parts too, its either does not exist or will likely be obscenely expensive. You will have to retort to lots of custom work. If you turbocharge it, given its compression, i dont think you can gain much. will You're better off getting a 4g91 and boosting that. The dollar per horsepower gained ratio would be in favor of the 4 potters.

 

[Izso]

Anyhow, when it comes to stroking to higher displacement, what are the key issues or areas that i need to manage for prolonging lifespan of my engine/box? This, I've always been curious with.

Hmm.. doing the stroke properly is good enough. Nothing much will need changing except perhaps the fuel mapping. Perhaps you could extract out a little more power from the larger capacity. There's nothing to worry about with stroking and oversizing pistons. Heck - if yours is a VDO Wira, the ecu is smart enough to adapt and compensate for the larger CC. Nothing to worry about at all. The gb will be able to handle the minor gain without issues.

And it's as what sanekit said - use good oils, don't extend oil changes, and your car will be fine. Pretty much applies for normal cars too.

eh? mounting points is same iinm. only the bracket on the left hand side, and gearbox side is different.

Yala.. different means different la.. it's still not PNP

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Hi Renesis!

I have to agree with you. When it comes to troubleshooting problems, an inline4 is definitely easier to sort compared to a v6 engine. Also, in comparison between my 4g15 to 6a10, we're changing about single camshaft to quad camshaft, single belt to two belts, 12 valves to 24, four to six pistons/sparkplugs, all-in-all, a higher number of items to look after and to maintain. Thus, maintenance cost overall are increased quite significantly, about 1.75 times more compared a regular 4g dohc series. Also, not to mention that mechanics that are used to 6a10 are harder to source compared to sourcing for 4g series mechanic (spare/new parts too).

Now, lighter valvetrain (4g15 sohc has one camshaft) definitely has advantage when moving from an idling state as the pedal/acceleration response is quicker, making it a lighter and friendlier city driving option. But this only applies to speeds moving below 60kmh. Anything above that, is a burden for the valvetrain, I believe. With the 3 speed auto box, we're barely moving beyond 100kmh at the final gear (third) rotating at 3.5k rpm. And when we cruise above that, the 12 valve and single rotating camshaft would need to work really hard to push it any harder, resulting to poor fc and power delivery, both pick up and top speed. Thus, for a casual daily driven car between cities, 4g15 is acceptable, but not the best when it comes to highway cruising (speed above 90kmh) with or without weights (lack of power delivery and fc).

The heavier valvetrain (6a10 dohc has 4 camshaft) definitely has disadvantage when moving from an idling state as the pedal/acceleration response is slower, making it a heavier and unfriendly city driving option. Though, when speeds climb above 60kmh, the quad camshafts and 24 valves would definitely produce better results when it comes to acceleration. Now, 6a10 has 4 speed auto box, which probably has a shorter gear ratio compared to 4g15 (i might be wrong), would allow me to have a better acceleration if the engine weight was the same. But because of the engine weight difference, 4g15 might have a slight advantage for acceleration and fc between idling to 60kmh (very slight). But anything above 60kmh, quite likely 6a10 would move forward further. Now, top speed and higher cruising speed would definitely has lesser strain on parts as the torture is shared across more parts (long term maintenance is definitely costlier), and for that, when i constantly drive between 120-160, it would be bearable and sustainable for the engine life and parts.

To cure or improve the drivability of the 6a10 durig 0-60kmh response and acceleration, i had plans to stroke or soft-turbocharging it. Though, the tough question here might be, would the soft-turbo (probably twin td04 at low psi, or single td04 at low psi) be a solution? Otherwise, would stroking or swapping bigger cc blocks help? Either way, auto box is the main concern as too much is not good either to sustain the gbox.

I guess, all-in-all, i should be prepared that the power delivery would not be super great, but it would definitely have better output than my current internals. On the bright side, the exhaust note is there to sing you tunes from time to time

Looks like you realize what you are signing up for if you are going for 6A10 engine. Good to hear that.

4G15 is actually an engine that is quite capable but in your case of example, the 4G15's potential is much throttled by its 3 speed auto box. So, the benefits of low end torque from this SOHC valvetrain is not so apparent due to the power sapping nature of this automatic gearbox. Having 3 gear ratio to play with makes it worse since these ratio are longer than the 5 speed manual. So, in a comparison between 4G15 AT with 6A10 AT, 6A10 definitely had more advantage over here I guess? But if it is a 4G15 MT in comparison, perhaps it might be able to keep up with 6A10 engine even if the 6A10 is using a manual gearbox.

I don't think it is worth it to go for soft turbocharging. By doing so, you are adding more complexity to your cramp engine bay. You put in more parts on an engine that is difficult to handle the final result might give you even more headache. Besides, if you are turbocharging it, I guess you will take parts from 6A12TT like those intercooler piping? If you are, then you might just attract unwanted attention during roadblock. JPJ officers will think that you are using 6A12TT instead of a turbocharged 6A10 because of your engine's appearance. Difficult for you to prove that it is a 6A10 engine since the block number is not easily seen. I think you are better off trying to find a way to stroke up the engine instead of going for turbocharging. Don't forget that if you are turbocharging it, you are adding even more weight to the front of your car which is already heavy and that is going to be bad for your handling.

ohh... i had a friend with this engine plonked into a satria, then he got rid of it, and bought a perdana which apparently was another regret of his before he absolved all regrets by plonking in the 4g63t into that. let me warn you, more bad than good will come from this....

the maintanance of this thing is that of a perdana but you only get a tiny bit of power from it. fortunately alot of the other bits are the same as the perdana parts, Unfortunately, it means you pay perdana prices for a 1.6L. Some parts (cant remember which) were an absolute hell to cari and when you do, it costs an even bigger bomb.

sparkplugs are an absolute @#$%* to deal with (i have 1st hand exp here) and basically you have alot more parts to maintain (as you obviously already know)... and lets be honest, its not as easy to reliably squeeze power out of. these na 6aXX engines were not built to deal with alot of power like to rev and their power curve is very linear. Heck even the even the 6a12mivec which was built to do the job feels very linear, compared to the 'nivec' models basically has more top end power.

now if the idea is to get a bang for buck decent performance engine, this really isnt the way to go.
you stroke it, 6 pistons need to be replaced, you need to bore 6 holes. The last issue which may or may not put you off is the general available info/expertise with these engines. You can easily find ppl to squeeze power out of any of those 4 potters, but with this v6, forget off the shelf parts too, its either does not exist or will likely be obscenely expensive. You will have to retort to lots of custom work. If you turbocharge it, given its compression, i dont think you can gain much. will You're better off getting a 4g91 and boosting that. The dollar per horsepower gained ratio would be in favor of the 4 potters.

V6 owner has spoken.

The thing is, I felt like TS is not trying to get a bang for buck kind of performance. More like he is attracted by the charm of a V6 engine.

 

[sweelt]

Budget wise, agree 4g93t is way more.
Go ahead with your project, if u seeking the nice v6 tone, and some extra power than 4g15.
U are prepare, and maintenance for the engine is a bit complicated then straight 4.
We give suggestion, so do more research. Don't compare with others engine once project complete n you'll be fine.

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Budget wise, agree 4g93t is way more.
Go ahead with your project, if u seeking the nice v6 tone, and some extra power than 4g15.
U are prepare, and maintenance for the engine is a bit complicated then straight 4.
We give suggestion, so do more research. Don't compare with others engine once project complete n you'll be fine.

Going for 6A10 is like dare to be different path. I like your comment about this. Sometimes, doing things your own unique way can really make your build stand out compared to the rest as most of them are similar.

 

[sanekit]

Yala.. different means different la.. it's still not PNP

Buy bracket jer. Then can PNP. If halfcut bracket mounts still ok then can use. Hehehe

 

[vr2turbo]

Buy bracket jer. Then can PNP. If halfcut bracket mounts still ok then can use. Hehehe

If need bracket means mounting point differs, right?

 

[vr2turbo]

Going for 6A10 is like dare to be different path. I like your comment about this. Sometimes, doing things your own unique way can really make your build stand out compared to the rest as most of them are similar.

Sometimes dare to be different will cost a lot........lol

 

[RENESIS VIII]

Sometimes dare to be different will cost a lot........lol

Yeah. So, persistence and perseverance is one of the key points in such kind of build. Don't go halfway then give up and that is a very bad ending. Cost a lot but end up with an incomplete result.

 

[niklys]

You have to try it to feel the smoothness, some mention silky smooth.......lol

Hi vr!

The smoothness probably could be felt at higher cruising speed (somewhere above 100kmh, I could be wrong). But during idling phase, say we're at traffic light and the gear is in D, quite sure the idling would get rough and the rattling would kick in (similar to my 4g15 auto in D mode, currently), would it? Also, the air-condition fan and engine, wouldn't it be loud? I've heard an idling 4g93t and 4g93 generation of sound with their air-condition turned on, and boy, it's pretty loud and rough.

Of course, the above mentioned stuffs aren't really a big concern. You have N mode and wind-up windows for a good reason hahahahah! Though, when they mean smoothness, is it felt across the acceleration feeling or top-speed power delivery? Can't really seem to understand the term "smoothness" besides lesser vibration at higher speed. Because from the law of physics, inline-4 actually has better balance in their valvetrain meanwhile the v6 actually requires a rocker arm/balance shaft to balance out their uneven firing order (imagine 3cylinder per bank, instead of 4 cylinder that cancels out each other firing order). Likewise, the 6a10 actually relies on their engine mounting to reduce/mute the vibration generated from the uneven firing order, which means, the v6 engine relies on engine mounting to be "smooth", rather than the v6 layout was naturally balance.

Though, more pistons do mean that lesser torture/abuse is generated when in comparison of individual pistons. It also reflects lesser vibration/harshness when driven at a more aggressive rate, that comes with more maintenance, cause more parts. It's a fair trade-off, I believe.

Oh well, I guess that I really need to try a 6a10 to know it myself hahahaha!

 

[niklys]

eh? mounting points is same iinm. only the bracket on the left hand side, and gearbox side is different.



It's good to know that at least u have some knowledge on the engine you want to swap. you really did your research.

And yeah, proper stroking the 6A10 you can get at least 1800cc minimum and 1970cc max. Oh, you need to swap your autobox with the 6A12 autobox for better torque handling. The 6A10 autobox can only handle certain amount of torque. As for methods to prolong your engine lifespan, don't be stingy. Use good engine oil, change oil according to interval time, use only mitsu sp3 for the ATF.

Hi sane!

Thank you for your compliment! Though, my knowledge are really limited, as it's based on Google, basic physics understanding, and some general reading (lack of practical/real-world application).

Do allow me to clarify. So you are saying that the mounting points are the same, but only the point where the bracket is allocated is on the left, and the gearbox point is also different. Legally, it's fine (correct me if I'm wrong) and should not provide any potential "issues" mechanically, so to speak.

Also, I came to research that JDM 6a10 autobox are much more refined and durable when in comparison to 6a12 pv6 autobox. I believe the pv6 autobox is prone to failure due to a crucial cooling agent is removed from the gearbox (Proton Malaysia cost-cutting regime), resulting to a weak and fragile gearbox. Naturally, 6a12 autobox should be able to withstand more torque when compared to the 6a10 box. Though, it only applies if I'm able to attain the JDM variant 6a12 autobox. Till the time that I may attain a certified JDM 6a12 autobox, I might want to stick to the 6a10 box (well, only JDM has it, so no fear for Proton 4g92p famous box failure).

I believe that I am able to change the engine oil, and other moderation check-up, on time (if not, earlier). I like to care of my ride, constantly. It's just something about cars that made me feel, that I'm at peace. You know the feeling? Though, what engine oil is best suited for the 6a10? Would thinner oils be applicable (thinner oil tends to have better power delivery and/or pickup, trade-offs with lubrication and protection)? Mitsu sp3? Got it!

 

[niklys]

ohh... i had a friend with this engine plonked into a satria, then he got rid of it, and bought a perdana which apparently was another regret of his before he absolved all regrets by plonking in the 4g63t into that. let me warn you, more bad than good will come from this....

the maintanance of this thing is that of a perdana but you only get a tiny bit of power from it. fortunately alot of the other bits are the same as the perdana parts, Unfortunately, it means you pay perdana prices for a 1.6L. Some parts (cant remember which) were an absolute hell to cari and when you do, it costs an even bigger bomb.

sparkplugs are an absolute @#$%* to deal with (i have 1st hand exp here) and basically you have alot more parts to maintain (as you obviously already know)... and lets be honest, its not as easy to reliably squeeze power out of. these na 6aXX engines were not built to deal with alot of power like to rev and their power curve is very linear. Heck even the even the 6a12mivec which was built to do the job feels very linear, compared to the 'nivec' models basically has more top end power.

now if the idea is to get a bang for buck decent performance engine, this really isnt the way to go.
you stroke it, 6 pistons need to be replaced, you need to bore 6 holes. The last issue which may or may not put you off is the general available info/expertise with these engines. You can easily find ppl to squeeze power out of any of those 4 potters, but with this v6, forget off the shelf parts too, its either does not exist or will likely be obscenely expensive. You will have to retort to lots of custom work. If you turbocharge it, given its compression, i dont think you can gain much. will You're better off getting a 4g91 and boosting that. The dollar per horsepower gained ratio would be in favor of the 4 potters.

Hi LSM!

I agree with you that 4g63t, 6a12tt, or even a 6a12 na manual, would be a better platform overall when compared to the 6a10. Most people would want, in my case, to get a 4g93t instead of a 6a10. I might have done the same thing, if and only if, that 4g93t aint so expensive.

Now, the maintenance of 6a10 are expected to be similar to pv6 run-in cost. In fact, it might cost a little more when it comes to very specific parts that 6a10 itself only can have. That being said, with a costlier and not-so-user friendly engine platform, to squeeze reliable power or to have an amazing power delivery is another issue for the 6a10 platform too. Oh well

Though, power delivery is definitely on my bucket list. However, I am driving a 4g15 sohc auto currently. In my shoes, anything that may deliver better power output than the 4g15 sohc auto, is a considerable option. In the event if I were to attain 4g91/92/93, quite likely I would get bored by the "normal" performance and build. I guess, this is where the 6a10 hook me on pretty tight. It's not your usual choice among modders, and definitely not one to go for when it comes to performance objective. But it sure beats 4g15 sohc auto in terms of whp, torque, and number of gears. So, for a moderately acceptable price of swapping, it seemed like a feasible choice. Then, I came to know the uniqueness of the engine note. From there, it became a solid choice for me. Automatic drive, a little spice of engine music tune, and comparable power to 4g counterpart in auto variant? Sounds like an option for me!

You are right, bang-for-buck performance improvement is definitely on 4g93 sohc/dohc. Lighter valvetrain, bigger displacement (theres no replacement for displacement, except turbocharging), and cheaper maintenance. But in auto variant, they both feel about the same.

6 holes, 6 pistons. God bless me.

 

[niklys]

Hmm.. doing the stroke properly is good enough. Nothing much will need changing except perhaps the fuel mapping. Perhaps you could extract out a little more power from the larger capacity. There's nothing to worry about with stroking and oversizing pistons. Heck - if yours is a VDO Wira, the ecu is smart enough to adapt and compensate for the larger CC. Nothing to worry about at all. The gb will be able to handle the minor gain without issues.

And it's as what sanekit said - use good oils, don't extend oil changes, and your car will be fine. Pretty much applies for normal cars too.



Yala.. different means different la.. it's still not PNP

Hi Izso!

With proper stroking, only fuel mapping is necessary to ensure reliability? Yet, I thought I need to look into other areas to ensure reliability. Seems like I've learned something new today. Thank you for that!

Though, when switched to 6a10, it should a MMC ecu. No more self-adapting VDO. :hmmmm:

Good oils, are something I'm not familiar with. Viscosity is as far as I can understand from the perspective of physics. Anything further, I'm at dead-end. Thus, mind sharing a little of your recipe?

 

[niklys]

Looks like you realize what you are signing up for if you are going for 6A10 engine. Good to hear that.

4G15 is actually an engine that is quite capable but in your case of example, the 4G15's potential is much throttled by its 3 speed auto box. So, the benefits of low end torque from this SOHC valvetrain is not so apparent due to the power sapping nature of this automatic gearbox. Having 3 gear ratio to play with makes it worse since these ratio are longer than the 5 speed manual. So, in a comparison between 4G15 AT with 6A10 AT, 6A10 definitely had more advantage over here I guess? But if it is a 4G15 MT in comparison, perhaps it might be able to keep up with 6A10 engine even if the 6A10 is using a manual gearbox.

I don't think it is worth it to go for soft turbocharging. By doing so, you are adding more complexity to your cramp engine bay. You put in more parts on an engine that is difficult to handle the final result might give you even more headache. Besides, if you are turbocharging it, I guess you will take parts from 6A12TT like those intercooler piping? If you are, then you might just attract unwanted attention during roadblock. JPJ officers will think that you are using 6A12TT instead of a turbocharged 6A10 because of your engine's appearance. Difficult for you to prove that it is a 6A10 engine since the block number is not easily seen. I think you are better off trying to find a way to stroke up the engine instead of going for turbocharging. Don't forget that if you are turbocharging it, you are adding even more weight to the front of your car which is already heavy and that is going to be bad for your handling.



V6 owner has spoken.

The thing is, I felt like TS is not trying to get a bang for buck kind of performance. More like he is attracted by the charm of a V6 engine.

Hi Renesis!

It took me awhile before I decided to venture into 6a10. But after careful consideration, I decided to nurture a v6 layout. Likely because it is unique, and I might be the only rare few to have it left. With the unique music tune that it produce, better performance by a huge margin compared to my 4g15 sohc auto, it definitely seemed like a bargain for me.

I wish I could adopt manual driving style. But it seemed like I'm pretty much living in a comfort zone with automatic drives, yet, wanting a little more spice in my ride. Greedy, yet not wanting to pay the price of driving it like how it's supposed to be driven. Yeap, that's me.

I did consider that if I turbocharge it, parts from 6a12tt is definitely a must. Due to the exposed intercooler, I would definitely attract JPJ. Then, anything could be in the grey area. To avoid this from occuring, stroking seemed viable probably because they can't know that it's stroked on the spot of inspection, unless sent to Puspakom for a thorough inspection. Thus, I considered before to stroke it first, and to decide to turbocharge it later-on, or retaining a stroked NA layout.

You are definitely accurate and on point. I'm really hooked by the music that 6a10 can produce. It's so refined and aggressive concurrently. Ain't gonna lie about it, and have been outfront pointing since the beginning of this discussion. Hahahaha!

Anyway, bone stock 6a10 might give me issues when it comes to hard cornering. But straight line, shoud be cool, isn't it (i could be wrong)?

 

[vr2turbo]

Oh well, I guess that I really need to try a 6a10 to know it myself hahahaha!

Yup, you need to try it to feel it. Actually it is smooth throughout from idling to acceleration. Initial pick up also it is smooth compared to the 4 porter......lol