The ins and outs of chassis strengthening

[LittleWhiteWagon]

guys, does auto foam make the car chassis more prone to rust as the foam may trap moisture?

one more thing, I'm interesting in this rigid collar thing, where can we get it?

Waterproof & when it hardens it fills out everything possible, not porous at all.

I wonder whether we can custom rigid collars ourself? I've been wanting to have it as well haha

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Anyway, to continue this discussion further I called up Ultra Racing since they claim to be the world's largest manufacturer of strut bars, chassis braces etc. Actually, I emailed them first through their website since most of the parts they listed are for R34 but not specified if for GTT or GTR. I specifically asked about the room bar and the fender braces.

Within 5-10 minutes I got an email from one of the sales reps explaining that both would fit regardless of GTT or GTR and installation for both takes a couple of hours since the fenders need to be removed although room bar mounts at same place as base of seatbelts. So I called him immediately and asked him about the other parts as the descriptions online weren't clear. He said he'd list them out via email and we ended our conversation.

Within 5 minutes I had a list of which parts fit the GTR and which didn't. He also said that the white bars could not be painted other colours as that voided warranty (yes, I had a WTF moment too!). Anyway, for the three point fender braces and room bar together plus installation was RM600 which I guess is OK.

I then told him my actual intentions was to find someone locally who could replicate the bars that Nismo, Do-Luck, etc all make but minus the premium pricing. My reasoning was that since we know where they mount the bars and what materials roughly they use, it should work the same way with the difference being perhaps weight since Ultra Racing do not use chromoly for example. Aside from cost, I told him the reason why I was keen to find a local outfit was because the last time I ordered a chromoly roll cage from Cusco (which they only make to order) it took over two months to arrive.

He then replied that Ultra Racing can customize pretty much anything (replicate is more accurate) and that if I was interested, I should go to their facility to discuss further and if I agreed, they would ideally like the car for 5 days or so to make all the items I required. Furthermore, I would be receiving a special rate since they do not offer any of the parts I wanted for GTRs, a few for GTTs but not all, and once my car is done they basically have expanded their catalogue to provide all of what I have for other GTRs as well. But it was important my car was not previously involved in a bad accident that impacted the chassis which of course has never happened (touch wood!).

All of the above was done via email and phone within an hour. I've yet to reply to the above proposed solution because to be honest, I just remembered today when a friend asked me if I had contacted Ultra Racing yet. I'm toying with the idea but won't do anything now since Raya is next week plus I'd need to remove all my stereo gear to make it worthwhile. However, I still would want to speak to them in more detail as weight is a concern for example and secondly, not being able to paint the bars is ridiculous right? Maybe can wrap in stickers?

Anyway, that's all I have to add. What does everyone think? Any other roll cage fabricators etc around that can do this kind of work? Yoong? Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

EDIT: For those who use this chassis foam, I just want to ask if you view it more of a chassis strengthening modification or a NVH modification? Because my definition was one that increased rigidity to improve handling of the car while the foam by all accounts results improvements in NVH levels. If it is a chassis strengthening modification why is the local dealer (is it KL Auto something?) more of an audio type shop rather than performance workshop? I could be wrong on this but I don't see the typical performance shops in Sunway advising customers to have this done as compared to ICE shops. This is a genuine question so no need to get defensive, all in the name of knowledge.

 

[LittleWhiteWagon]

Anyway, to continue this discussion further I called up Ultra Racing since they claim to be the world's largest manufacturer of strut bars, chassis braces etc. Actually, I emailed them first through their website since most of the parts they listed are for R34 but not specified if for GTT or GTR. I specifically asked about the room bar and the fender braces.

Within 5-10 minutes I got an email from one of the sales reps explaining that both would fit regardless of GTT or GTR and installation for both takes a couple of hours since the fenders need to be removed although room bar mounts at same place as base of seatbelts. So I called him immediately and asked him about the other parts as the descriptions online weren't clear. He said he'd list them out via email and we ended our conversation.

Within 5 minutes I had a list of which parts fit the GTR and which didn't. He also said that the white bars could not be painted other colours as that voided warranty (yes, I had a WTF moment too!). Anyway, for the three point fender braces and room bar together plus installation was RM600 which I guess is OK.

I then told him my actual intentions was to find someone locally who could replicate the bars that Nismo, Do-Luck, etc all make but minus the premium pricing. My reasoning was that since we know where they mount the bars and what materials roughly they use, it should work the same way with the difference being perhaps weight since Ultra Racing do not use chromoly for example. Aside from cost, I told him the reason why I was keen to find a local outfit was because the last time I ordered a chromoly roll cage from Cusco (which they only make to order) it took over two months to arrive.

He then replied that Ultra Racing can customize pretty much anything (replicate is more accurate) and that if I was interested, I should go to their facility to discuss further and if I agreed, they would ideally like the car for 5 days or so to make all the items I required. Furthermore, I would be receiving a special rate since they do not offer any of the parts I wanted for GTRs, a few for GTTs but not all, and once my car is done they basically have expanded their catalogue to provide all of what I have for other GTRs as well. But it was important my car was not previously involved in a bad accident that impacted the chassis which of course has never happened (touch wood!).

All of the above was done via email and phone within an hour. I've yet to reply to the above proposed solution because to be honest, I just remembered today when a friend asked me if I had contacted Ultra Racing yet. I'm toying with the idea but won't do anything now since Raya is next week plus I'd need to remove all my stereo gear to make it worthwhile. However, I still would want to speak to them in more detail as weight is a concern for example and secondly, not being able to paint the bars is ridiculous right? Maybe can wrap in stickers?

Anyway, that's all I have to add. What does everyone think? Any other roll cage fabricators etc around that can do this kind of work? Yoong? Suggestions? Thanks in advance!

EDIT: For those who use this chassis foam, I just want to ask if you view it more of a chassis strengthening modification or a NVH modification? Because my definition was one that increased rigidity to improve handling of the car while the foam by all accounts results improvements in NVH levels. If it is a chassis strengthening modification why is the local dealer (is it KL Auto something?) more of an audio type shop rather than performance workshop? I could be wrong on this but I don't see the typical performance shops in Sunway advising customers to have this done as compared to ICE shops. This is a genuine question so no need to get defensive, all in the name of knowledge.

The foam barely quietened the car, I'd say to did make the car feel more solid afterwards. Less hollow sounding when you hit potholes and quieter at idling but the stiffness in the chassis is felt the moment I left the shop.

My only GUESS to why sunway hasnt taken tried it is because... its super tricky to pour into the chassis, get it wrong, it'll be there forever ahaha. Imagine foaming up wires permanantely into a GTR's chassis or something

Which shop does profoam again btw? :hmmmm:

Oh and another question, anybody here running underchassis bars from UR?

 

[^pomen_GTR^]

pimpin...i think there's no any better local company to do the custom job/breakthrough for strenghten bars....

perhaps they could give big discount for using your car as rig to develop their custom/new product

 

[[PIMPIN]]

The foam barely quietened the car, I'd say to did make the car feel more solid afterwards. Less hollow sounding when you hit potholes and quieter at idling but the stiffness in the chassis is felt the moment I left the shop.

My only GUESS to why sunway hasnt taken tried it is because... its super tricky to pour into the chassis, get it wrong, it'll be there forever ahaha. Imagine foaming up wires permanantely into a GTR's chassis or something

Which shop does profoam again btw? :hmmmm:

Oh and another question, anybody here running underchassis bars from UR?

I see. Well, the reason why I decided to revisit the issue of chassis foam was because in one of the recent Hypertune issues there was an article of what looked like Kumeran's car having the foam treatment done at After12 (is this the proper name?) and the initial impression was that there was significant improvement going over potholes and being an older car, it DID make a difference mostly in terms of NVH.

However, does it improve the handling? This I genuinely do not know which is why I started this topic to understand ALL chassis modifications and I'm not for or against any type. I'm keeping an open mind and will read and respect everyone's opinions especially those based on experiences I've yet to have.

How hard is it to inject the chassis with foam? I really do not know how its done but roughly I'm assuming they use the holes in the chassis used when the chassis is mounted on the jig to straighten it? And basically just fill-up the cavity until packed? I'm just main hentam only to be honest. If you gave me a tube of foam and told me to do it, that's what I'd probably try LOL

I don't have any undercarriage bars from Ultra Racing and I was hoping there would be some on here who do. At least I could get some feedback on their workmanship, etc. All they offer is a range of bars for the GTT but not the GTR. Guess its due to the drivetrain.

pimpin...i think there's no any better local company to do the custom job/breakthrough for strenghten bars....

perhaps they could give big discount for using your car as rig to develop their custom/new product

That's pretty much what the guy said. In other words, they get a platform for R&D or for use to design and create a mould while I get a full setup of whatever bars it is I want for special prices. I'm still thinking about it and would appreciate input on Ultra Racing and their workmanship especially for custom parts as opposed to off-the-shelf parts. Because I'd be replicating other brand designs, the only Achilles heel is the workmanship. As for weight, I doubt its much plus removing my 100kg audio setup so it'll still end up lighter.

Decisions, decisions. Can only be made once I've heard enough recommendations and opinions.

 

[xbalance2002]

i been asking a friend of mine that there are in rally car... this comment is about the foam thing is not a good idea as he comment ..

our country is very high in humid if the foam when in the car chassis and maybe a in high risk of trapping the water vapour in side of the chassis day by day past may cause of rust from inside out.

if not mistaken there are some 1 do offer chrome molly tubing.

 

[LittleWhiteWagon]

I see. Well, the reason why I decided to revisit the issue of chassis foam was because in one of the recent Hypertune issues there was an article of what looked like Kumeran's car having the foam treatment done at After12 (is this the proper name?) and the initial impression was that there was significant improvement going over potholes and being an older car, it DID make a difference mostly in terms of NVH.

However, does it improve the handling? This I genuinely do not know which is why I started this topic to understand ALL chassis modifications and I'm not for or against any type. I'm keeping an open mind and will read and respect everyone's opinions especially those based on experiences I've yet to have.

How hard is it to inject the chassis with foam? I really do not know how its done but roughly I'm assuming they use the holes in the chassis used when the chassis is mounted on the jig to straighten it? And basically just fill-up the cavity until packed? I'm just main hentam only to be honest. If you gave me a tube of foam and told me to do it, that's what I'd probably try LOL

I don't have any undercarriage bars from Ultra Racing and I was hoping there would be some on here who do. At least I could get some feedback on their workmanship, etc. All they offer is a range of bars for the GTT but not the GTR. Guess its due to the drivetrain.



That's pretty much what the guy said. In other words, they get a platform for R&D or for use to design and create a mould while I get a full setup of whatever bars it is I want for special prices. I'm still thinking about it and would appreciate input on Ultra Racing and their workmanship especially for custom parts as opposed to off-the-shelf parts. Because I'd be replicating other brand designs, the only Achilles heel is the workmanship. As for weight, I doubt its much plus removing my 100kg audio setup so it'll still end up lighter.

Decisions, decisions. Can only be made once I've heard enough recommendations and opinions.

Haha well it does make sense in the NVH part, like I did mention it makes the car feel more solid, but if you want serious quietness theres no replacement for good old soundproofing!

Handling it's night and day in my wagon, it feels like the whole car as uhm... one piece. Swing into a sharp slow hairpin you can feel as if you're on a ladder with wheels? HAHA I cant describe how it helps in stability , but it helped most on long sweeping corners. Sharp corners I still understeer cause of well... being a nose heavy FF , no ARB's, and moderate tires.

It feels like a ladder has been welded into the chassis . And it took the flexing out of my hatch area so im happy enough, but if I could i'd add a D-pillar bar like those satria guys.


They remove the plastic bits of your interior, like A-B-C pillar covers, mask off all the holes at the bottom except the top then inject the foam mixture. After expanding they peel off the tape, put back the plastic panels and tadah you get an injected chassis.

From what I know they DONT inject it into any water drainage areas, I dont think the ABCD pillars insides are water gutters ahaha.

But seriously guys, anybody else here using FOAM? I feel so weird being the only one replying about chassis foam .

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Haha well it does make sense in the NVH part, like I did mention it makes the car feel more solid, but if you want serious quietness theres no replacement for good old soundproofing!

Handling it's night and day in my wagon, it feels like the whole car as uhm... one piece. Swing into a sharp slow hairpin you can feel as if you're on a ladder with wheels? HAHA I cant describe how it helps in stability , but it helped most on long sweeping corners. Sharp corners I still understeer cause of well... being a nose heavy FF , no ARB's, and moderate tires.

It feels like a ladder has been welded into the chassis . And it took the flexing out of my hatch area so im happy enough, but if I could i'd add a D-pillar bar like those satria guys.


They remove the plastic bits of your interior, like A-B-C pillar covers, mask off all the holes at the bottom except the top then inject the foam mixture. After expanding they peel off the tape, put back the plastic panels and tadah you get an injected chassis.

From what I know they DONT inject it into any water drainage areas, I dont think the ABCD pillars insides are water gutters ahaha.

But seriously guys, anybody else here using FOAM? I feel so weird being the only one replying about chassis foam .

Yup, I guess what I'm heading for is the opposite direction. I've got about 100kg+ of stereo and copious amounts of sound deadening in the car as it is. I'm looking to reverse the current situation and the chassis strengthening was part of the overall vision I had for the car which includes removing the audio setup.

Don't feel bad about no one else using foam here, least you're teaching all of us something new. No downside to additional knowledge IMHO.

 

[Izso]

Autofoam was originally used to reduce vibrational noise but was later discovered to stiffen the chassis since it filled up the hollow bits of your chassis therefore reducing the chassis flex. Autofoam was originally a Wurth item which is no longer purchasable via Wurth and is unique to Autofoam distributors only (in KL it's KL Auto - Desmond). After12 offers this product called "Profoam" which supposedly is Autofoams competitor but Autofoam have fought back with their own tests and their tests showed the 'competitor' didn't perform as well as Autofoam (look at their adverts in magazines). Personally I'd stick with the much-more-experienced Autofoam even though Profoam is significantly cheaper. Having said that though, I've heard horror stories about AFs that screwed up the injections and stuffed up the seat belt mechanisms of super expensive cars (Aston Martin being the recent victim apparently) and having to compensate with a new seat belt part. So it's really a gamble I guess, but I'm guessing they've done more Skylines than Aston Martins.

Personally I think nothing beats double welding the chassis if you're looking for strengthening. Bars aren't exactly light.

 

[LittleWhiteWagon]

Autofoam was originally used to reduce vibrational noise but was later discovered to stiffen the chassis since it filled up the hollow bits of your chassis therefore reducing the chassis flex. Autofoam was originally a Wurth item which is no longer purchasable via Wurth and is unique to Autofoam distributors only (in KL it's KL Auto - Desmond). After12 offers this product called "Profoam" which supposedly is Autofoams competitor but Autofoam have fought back with their own tests and their tests showed the 'competitor' didn't perform as well as Autofoam (look at their adverts in magazines). Personally I'd stick with the much-more-experienced Autofoam even though Profoam is significantly cheaper. Having said that though, I've heard horror stories about AFs that screwed up the injections and stuffed up the seat belt mechanisms of super expensive cars (Aston Martin being the recent victim apparently) and having to compensate with a new seat belt part. So it's really a gamble I guess, but I'm guessing they've done more Skylines than Aston Martins.

Personally I think nothing beats double welding the chassis if you're looking for strengthening. Bars aren't exactly light.

Exactly why I think foam hasnt caught on, if foamed wrongly there goes anything in there ahaha.

But foam is a light way of stiffening it also, too bad its so pricey :hmmmm:... anyways no regrets for it at the moment.

 

[[PIMPIN]]

Autofoam was originally used to reduce vibrational noise but was later discovered to stiffen the chassis since it filled up the hollow bits of your chassis therefore reducing the chassis flex. Autofoam was originally a Wurth item which is no longer purchasable via Wurth and is unique to Autofoam distributors only (in KL it's KL Auto - Desmond). After12 offers this product called "Profoam" which supposedly is Autofoams competitor but Autofoam have fought back with their own tests and their tests showed the 'competitor' didn't perform as well as Autofoam (look at their adverts in magazines). Personally I'd stick with the much-more-experienced Autofoam even though Profoam is significantly cheaper. Having said that though, I've heard horror stories about AFs that screwed up the injections and stuffed up the seat belt mechanisms of super expensive cars (Aston Martin being the recent victim apparently) and having to compensate with a new seat belt part. So it's really a gamble I guess, but I'm guessing they've done more Skylines than Aston Martins.

Personally I think nothing beats double welding the chassis if you're looking for strengthening. Bars aren't exactly light.

Wow this is news to me. How does a bad installation job screw up the seat belt mechanisms exactly? Didn't even know such a risk existed.

 

[Izso]

If you look at the bottom part of the retractable bit of your seatbelt or in some cases the bottom bit. Some cars have it bolted into the chassis bit that's not accessible without the right tool. I think for some reason they foam some parts of the chassis near there and if they overrun it covers the belt and mucks it up. I don't know exactly how. Either that or the B pillar foaming mucks up the seat belt tensioner. That's all I can think of.

 

[cutebanana]

value for buck, i'd go for UR bars, tower bars and fender bars alone you can already feel the results. The real proper way is to strip the car and go for seam welding but this is only for really serious folks who got enough cash and time and motivation to go through it all. No use using foam if you already have bars installed if you're talking only about chassis strengthening. As for NVH, i can't vouch for foam but i'd think sound from the tires can't be eliminated using foam and actually sound from the tires are more than what we realise.

 

[markblurberry]

Well, i been following foaming for quite some time now...never really bring myself to do it tho...probably 2 factors holding me from doing the foaming

1) Foaming actually fill up the hollow space in the chasis to reduce vibration, but it doesnt strenghten the molecular composition of the chassis.

2) The after effect of foaming or for this matter, the aftermarket chasis bars - might have implication on the shocks ab and also bushes...even bearings. This the result of transfer of stress to different part/component of the car, as such, even after putting in chassis strenghtening stuff, be prepare for repair to other part of the car

Since I am driving a toyota, which is noted for its good suspension, if you feel that by driving it hard and you still feel that it's a solid drive, why the need to strenghten it? Unless you are going for lap time -then maybe you can do 1 part at a time to gauge the benefit of stiffening the chassis.

Just my tot on foaming....

 

[LittleWhiteWagon]

Well, i been following foaming for quite some time now...never really bring myself to do it tho...probably 2 factors holding me from doing the foaming

1) Foaming actually fill up the hollow space in the chasis to reduce vibration, but it doesnt strenghten the molecular composition of the chassis.

2) The after effect of foaming or for this matter, the aftermarket chasis bars - might have implication on the shocks ab and also bushes...even bearings. This the result of transfer of stress to different part/component of the car, as such, even after putting in chassis strenghtening stuff, be prepare for repair to other part of the car

Since I am driving a toyota, which is noted for its good suspension, if you feel that by driving it hard and you still feel that it's a solid drive, why the need to strenghten it? Unless you are going for lap time -then maybe you can do 1 part at a time to gauge the benefit of stiffening the chassis.

Just my tot on foaming....

The foam is a closed-sell sort of foam, after it expands it get hard (LOL) like well, cement. It reduces metal fatigue due to filling out any area where it can possibly flex .