Twin turbo a 4cylinder engine (1big and 1 small turbine)

Tom

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Here's an image I borrowed off Google

Wow, gotta to say although I understand how compound charging works, still that picture took me a while to process.

But great explanation on compound charging and the the above vgt and twin scroll, much more easier to digest that way
 

Tom

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Actually it's the other way round. Compound charge will be damn nice for daily and a twin scroll would be good for racing. Imagine daily driving your car you can floor it at 2000rpm and get full boost going up that flyover and you're lazy to change gear, yet also able to pull all the way to 8000rpm when that idiot high beam you on the road not knowing what's under the hood.

You really only need a single large turbo for racing as your engine rpm will be operating at a very narrow range which would be the effective operating range of your turbo and a twin scroll turbo can expand that powerband slightly to make it even more useful.
Would you say it's like twin charging but simpler?
 

ixeo

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Disadvantages is plumbing nightmare, need to buy 2 wastegates and possibly tuning nightmare as well.
Tuning a small responsive turbo, on a car from the 90s is a nightmare. Especially when you want a linear throttle response. I can only imagine the headache of this compound charging, especially in the transition stage between the small and the big turbo based on throttle input.

Because if its not tuned correctly, you will get a sudden boost while your throttle is applied in a linear fashion.

30% throttle input, 30% power,
50% throttle input, suddenly 90% power (because the boost control strategy isn't comprehensive enough)

K3VET, for daily use, seriously, it's enough. Stick it in a Kelisa and you have power to weight ratio of the original Lotus Elise mk.1. What more could you possibly want.
 

Nightstalker1993

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Wow, gotta to say although I understand how compound charging works, still that picture took me a while to process.

But great explanation on compound charging and the the above vgt and twin scroll, much more easier to digest that way
Thanks, I try my best to keep it simple, and that image really does help understanding the system greatly.

Also can watch this video, the explanation on the video is superb.


VGT and Twin scroll is nothing new, both pretty much have the same goal which is to expand the turbo's efficiency range. But still out of reach of the mainstream production cars yet due to most probably the high cost for a VGT turbo designed to withstand the heat of a petrol engine, and also the complicated control strategies required to operate the VGT mechanism. If you can't wait, you can get a Porsche :laugh: Also, the more moving part, the more chance of problems. I've seen the VGT vanes of a VGT turbo get stuck before so that's another thing to ponder as well.

Twin scroll turbos works by dividing the exhaust pulses, introducing the scavenging effect in a way and reduces interference between the pulses thus improving the engine as well as the turbocharger's efficiency. Since twin scroll turbos work by dividing exhaust pulses, the manifold design is of utmost importance and for a common 4 cyl, cyl 1 and 4 will be paired to 1 scroll while cyl 2 and 3 will be paired to the other scroll. If you install a single external wastegate on the system by combining both scrolls, you pretty much negate the benefits of a twin scroll as mixing between the cylinder pulses can then occur since you had basically combined the scrolls. A proper wastegate system on a twin scroll setup would require two wastegates. On a stock Evo 4+ turbo for example, there is actually 2 wastegate flappers operated by a common actuator so the gas really does stay divided all the way until after the turbo.

For more reading material on twin scroll turbos, can read a few links here

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/01/02/twin-scroll-turbo-system-design-explained/
http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/twin-scroll-vs-single-scroll-turbo-test-the-great-divide/
https://www.rx7club.com/single-turb...s-single-scroll-vs-twin-scroll-turbos-903210/

so really, if possible, get a twin scroll turbo :laugh:

Would you say it's like twin charging but simpler?
No it is really completely different. Twin charging as in 2 identical sized turbos, main purpose is to reduce turbo lag by reducing inertial mass, but still suffers from choking up top. but even that seems to be phasing out now with more efficient turbochargers being introduced. Those people with RB and JZ engines which came with twin turbos are converting to single turbos and getting very good gains.

Compound charge on the other hand, as the video I attached describe, is really like running 2 seperate turbos, one for the low end and one for up top, vastly increasing your powerband. It's slightly different than staged turbo on certain production car where there are actually flaps or valves blocking/rerouting the gas flow while compound charge really is just suck air through this turbo and push air through the other turbo :laugh:
 

Nightstalker1993

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Tuning a small responsive turbo, on a car from the 90s is a nightmare. Especially when you want a linear throttle response. I can only imagine the headache of this compound charging, especially in the transition stage between the small and the big turbo based on throttle input.

Because if its not tuned correctly, you will get a sudden boost while your throttle is applied in a linear fashion.

30% throttle input, 30% power,
50% throttle input, suddenly 90% power (because the boost control strategy isn't comprehensive enough)

K3VET, for daily use, seriously, it's enough. Stick it in a Kelisa and you have power to weight ratio of the original Lotus Elise mk.1. What more could you possibly want.
nehh, tuning small turbo cars are really pretty easy. And the tuning headache I imagine would be tuning the boost control strategy and such, fuel and ignition should be as per standard tuning strategy. But yeah, K3VET, with a TD04 upgrade should be pretty nice to drive already though of course your boost threshold will be at a higher RPM now meaning your boost will come in later
 

ixeo

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nehh, tuning small turbo cars are really pretty easy. And the tuning headache I imagine would be tuning the boost control strategy and such, fuel and ignition should be as per standard tuning strategy. But yeah, K3VET, with a TD04 upgrade should be pretty nice to drive already though of course your boost threshold will be at a higher RPM now meaning your boost will come in later
come tune my car for me :D . most "tuners" i speak to just tune boost to either on or off using a manual boost controller. there's no linearity to it. and most stuff like e-manage can't control boost anyway.

the cheapest piggy back with a boost map is AEM FIC 8. and the standalone stuff just gets better and expensive-er.
 

Nightstalker1993

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come tune my car for me :D . most "tuners" i speak to just tune boost to either on or off using a manual boost controller. there's no linearity to it. and most stuff like e-manage can't control boost anyway.

the cheapest piggy back with a boost map is AEM FIC 8. and the standalone stuff just gets better and expensive-er.
What car do you drive? Many modern standalone these days support boost by gear, mine even supports boost by TPS lol. I actually never tuned a piggyback before though.
 

ixeo

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What car do you drive? Many modern standalone these days support boost by gear, mine even supports boost by TPS lol. I actually never tuned a piggyback before though.
Don't drive a car, my boat is small displacement with a small turbo - peak boost at 2.2k rpm give or take. So yes, it needs to be mapped to TPS and by gear, else it won't be truly linear.

Not really, entry level like the Haltech Sprint 500 doesn't have a boost control map. Instead people use the generic output and set it to the pwm/load map, but that's open loop. I had it, sold it.

AEM FIC8 is pretty advanced -- for a piggyback, can control boost better than the Sprint 500. But alas, i drive a boat, so no point having an advanced standalone.
 

sweelt

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Don't drive a car, my boat is small displacement with a small turbo - peak boost at 2.2k rpm give or take. So yes, it needs to be mapped to TPS and by gear, else it won't be truly linear.

Not really, entry level like the Haltech Sprint 500 doesn't have a boost control map. Instead people use the generic output and set it to the pwm/load map, but that's open loop. I had it, sold it.

AEM FIC8 is pretty advanced -- for a piggyback, can control boost better than the Sprint 500. But alas, i drive a boat, so no point having an advanced standalone.
drive boat dy...
still keep the sampan ? lol...
 

ixeo

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drive boat dy...
still keep the sampan ? lol...
Boat = sampan = jukong

Diff language only ma. Hahaha. Wanna sell the sampan but feel a bit sayang.

The mods all add up costs as much as the car.
 

Nightstalker1993

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Don't drive a car, my boat is small displacement with a small turbo - peak boost at 2.2k rpm give or take. So yes, it needs to be mapped to TPS and by gear, else it won't be truly linear.

Not really, entry level like the Haltech Sprint 500 doesn't have a boost control map. Instead people use the generic output and set it to the pwm/load map, but that's open loop. I had it, sold it.

AEM FIC8 is pretty advanced -- for a piggyback, can control boost better than the Sprint 500. But alas, i drive a boat, so no point having an advanced standalone.
Wow that sounds really interesting! Reminds me of those videos circulating of Thai boaters plonking 2JZ and RB25 in their sampans. Crazy! What engine you're running though? I'm guessing a marine specific engine? And what ECU are you using now? Tuning on water gonna be scary though, laptop kena water gg, unless got money but Panasonic ToughBook haha. And no, car ke, boat ke, aeroplane ke, as long as it has a 4 stroke internal combustion engine, it can definitely benefit from a well tuned standalone. Plus these days there are quite a number of standalones that are water, or at least, weather sealed, so should be no issues with salt water.
 

Izso

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Wow that sounds really interesting! Reminds me of those videos circulating of Thai boaters plonking 2JZ and RB25 in their sampans. Crazy! What engine you're running though? I'm guessing a marine specific engine? And what ECU are you using now? Tuning on water gonna be scary though, laptop kena water gg, unless got money but Panasonic ToughBook haha. And no, car ke, boat ke, aeroplane ke, as long as it has a 4 stroke internal combustion engine, it can definitely benefit from a well tuned standalone. Plus these days there are quite a number of standalones that are water, or at least, weather sealed, so should be no issues with salt water.
Don't take him literally. It's still a car. Just a washy suspension car hence the boat reference.
 

ixeo

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Don't take him literally. It's still a car. Just a washy suspension car hence the boat reference.
Washy is an understatement. Imagine driving the myvi in your household, full throttle exiting a corner, and imagine twice the power.
 

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